I suggest you sit down first, okay, ready? : Kosher Wine (!)

Wine Pimps
21

Yes, what you have written is true, but I try not to emphasize the “observant Jew versus the world” theme. The production of kosher wine does not require xenophobia, just an adherence to a very workman like protocol not unlike many other manufacturing environments. The people employed are just making a product according to the requirements of their employers.

As an aside you might find it interesting that the two head winemakers at the Baron Herzog kosher wine facility in Oxnard, CA, are not Jewish.

22

Wow! Good luck with that, and I really mean it. [blink.gif]

Even if it’s the best wine ever made in CA, with no track record and in this economy, you will be hard pressed to find buyers.

23

The whole idea is that this particular winery does have a long track record. It is synonymous with the best Napa Cabernet.

The kosher cuvee will be identical to the usually non-kosher bottle in every way, no compromises as in some of the expensive kosher Bordeaux that have been on the market.

24

Rafi:

Call: Rosenberg Judaica & Wine -

144 Montgomery Ave Bala Cynwyd, PA 19004-2984 - (610) 667-3880

They have a very large kosher wine selection - ship all over (permitted in PA for kosher wines) and carries a good selection of the more expensive wines. I have purchased some excellent kosher wines there and since he is “outside” the stupid PA system - they can actually get wines which are difficult to get here.

25

What would it be called? “Sheydim Ferd”? [wink.gif]

26

I worked at the Rothschild Bank in London for years - and in the staff canteen (more like a dining room) we sometimes had Kosher wines, including Lafite. I am not sure if this was a special product available only to the family, but it was certainly good wine.

The only thing is - when it touched my palate it was no longer Kosher according to your explanations [oops.gif]

Best
Christian

27

Forgive me in advance, but I am amazed at the lack of knowledge shown here by many otherwise sophisticated and knowledeable people. First of all, let me assure you that there is far more kosher wine produced in the world than there is organic wine. Second, as there is no contradiction between high quality and the production of organic wines, neither is there a contradiction between high quality and kosher wines.

The days of kosher wines that were red, sweet, coarse and vulgar enough to remind us more of cough syrup than of anything resembling wine are long gone. Even the most observant of Jews has long ago realized that even for sacramental purposes (kiddush, blessings, etc) there was no commandment to drink bad wine. Indeed, for many kosher wine is required but more and more of even the most orthodox are realizing that fine wine is part of the cultured and civilized lifestyle.

Indeed, I may have an interest in this as I have been described as a man who tastes more kosher wines in a year than most people taste in their life-times. I am not an observant Jew but I do reside in Israel, write a twice-weekly column on wine for HaAretz newspaper (not only on kosher wines!!!) and am the author of two annual books - “Rogov’s Guide to Israeli Wines” (now in its seventh consecutive year) and “Rogov’s Guide to Kosher Wines” (in its first year and scheduled to appear in the USA on 1 September).

Had I been asked to write either of those books 20 years ago I would have chuckled heartily as there was simply not enough to write even a long article, yet alone a book. Today, however, that has changed dramatically and many kosher wines compete comfortably with the best of France, Italy, the USA and other countries as well. More than that, in the past two years Robert Parker/Mark Squires reviewed well over 100 Israel wines - some kosher, some not - 30% of which attained scores of 91 or higher; the Wine Spectator showed amazement at the quality of kosher wines that they have found; and Decanter and several other major magazines have reviewed Israeli and kosher wines with remarkably high praise.

I’m not at all certain that this is the place to go into a long monologue about what makes a wine kosher, why some (but increasingly few) wines are mevushal (i.e. flash-pasteurized), and reviews of such wines (high quality editions of which are produced now in Israel, France, Spain, Italy, Portugal, California, New York, Hungary, Germany, Chile and Argentina).

Those truly curious can of course ask specific questions and I will be more than pleased to answer them here. And please be aware that when I taste in my own tasting room such tastings are always blind, the wines matched with similar wines that are not-kosher. I have awarded kosher wines scores as low as 50 points (virtually zero) and up to 95 points.

Or, for those who care to, I can be reached by email at drogov@cheerful.com

Best wishes
Daniel Rogov

28

Quite an honor to have Rogov comment on my thread.
About a month ago I got his 2010 hardcover “pocket” guide to The World’s 500 Best Kosher Wines.
(Thank you Matthew Miller.) It is great and much more than just a handy reference at wine events. Quite a lot of information and should answer everyone’s questions about kosher wine in general and about your favourite wines in specific.

To get back to the point of my thread, we are going to be making a kosher version of a very high end Napa Cabernet.
Making the wine is actually the easy part however. We must first build the network of people to whom we can sell it forward. Once we have the fund commitments we will be able to begin production.

There will be no compromises in the production of this kosher wine. It will be identical to the usual non-kosher wine in every way except for the hechsher (kosher certification symbol) on the label, cork and capsule. We will make enough lots to be in a position to make a parallel kosher blend identical to the non-kosher.

Please refer people to the project help spread the word.

All the best,

Rafi Schutzer
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29

I don’t want to rain on the parade but the market for $200-300 kosher wine will be incredibly small. I wouldn’t think making more than a couple hundered cases would make sense. The market for $200 cab as a whole is incredible small, then multiply that by the 1/1000 people who are Kosher. Getting someone to obligate to buy in advance even harder. It would almost undoubtedly have to be an individual, as few establishmnets would want to carry the inventory. Or perhaps as export to Israel if that even is practical.
My wife sells some Kosher wines (only Herzog comes to mind above the plonk level) and deals with restaurants and event people here in LA. Obviously there is a quite large Jewish (& Kosher) population here. Still, even when people seek Kosher, they aren’t much interested in even the high-level Herzogs. These are decent/good and IIRC around $45 retail. As D.R. said there are also some kosher bordeauxs already available. So it isn’t as if there are no quality wines are currently available, nor do these (at far less than $200) don’t seem to have excessive demand. I do know that Herzog themselves came out with a luxury cuvee, but I have no idea how much it costs or how it sells.

30

So you’re looking for a customer base of people who are willing to commit to paying for wine 2-3 years in advance, untasted? And who want to pay through the schnozz for uber-pricy, uber-snotty kosher wine? Now that’s chutzpah! [g]

Sorry, I don’t know of anyone who fits the demographic you’re looking for. And frankly, if it was someone who was a friend of mine, I probably wouldn’t refer them to you. There are PLENTY of delicious kosher wines available on the market–you can actually buy them off the shelf, as opposed to paying upfront and hoping something gets delivered down the road. And none of them cost anything in the neighborhood you’re talking about.

Just one guy’s opinion, of course, but I wouldn’t touch this marketing proposal with a ten-foot yad…

Bruce

31

Herzog Generation VIII is around $150 - $200/bottle.

Right we know that the market is exceedingly small. But remember the wine (still unnamed) has a mailing list following that is quite rarefied as well. Also, you are correct, we will be making at most 200 cases.

I’m considering using some concepts from multi-level marketing to incentivise wine evangelists to build the network and be able to participate in the upside of the project, hence the name: The Premium Kosher Wine Collective.

All the best,

Rafi Schutzer
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32

Hi Bruce,

Thanks for the response and feedback. Let me just reassure you that we are not trying to force anyone to purchase overpriced kosher wine (not that you suggested that we were). But, for people who can taste/smell/appreciate the difference between a $50 bottle of wine and a $250 bottle of wine I know that they willingly part with their money to obtain such bottles.

Thirty years ago the market for good kosher wine only existed in a potential state. Today it is a reality. Similarly, I believe the market for premium kosher wine, now in it’s infancy, will mature into something more a kin to its non-kosher cousin category. As I wrote above, I’m looking for kosher wine evangelists (educators if you will). I believe, as do the Herzogs, the Ben Zakons and others currently investing in high end kosher wine development, that the category will grow.


All the best,

Rafi Schutzer
http://www.KosherCuvee.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

33

Doesn’t anyone know Yiddish anymore? [cry.gif]

34

I have to admit your Yiddish eludes me. I remember people talking about sheydim or demons. And my rabbi told me a Yiddish expression once which included the word “ferd” which he said meant a horse.

Is “Sheydim Ferd” some kind of idomatic expression because I don’t get it?

35

There’s another high end kosher wine I didn’t see posted which was the Quinault Lafleur. Saw someone post about the Covenant; that one’s good too.

36

Yes they have 2005 vintage which was given a 93 by Daniel Rogov.
I don’t think any of their previous vintages were kosher.
The 2006 has not been released yet as far as I know.

Please let me know what you think of the Premium Kosher Wine Collective project http://www.KosherCuvee.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ?

All the best,

Rafi Schutzer

37

We keep a Kosher home, but thankfully that does not apply to the wine EXCEPT on Passover.

There is a lot of terrific Kosher wine, and I have much better luck with non-Mevushal wines. Not saying that you can;t get a great Mevushal wine, but it really seems to change the wines and most for the worse. I have a 6-pack of the 2003 Kosher Valandraud that I am looking forward to someday. Poyferre Kosher is quite nice as well. The 1999 faded a bit, but the 2000 rocks the house.

38

Ahh, I see were this thread is going. A Kosher Harlan or Napa Valley Reserve or something in that direction. Once upon a time I might have been a buyer, but a jerk named Bernie did his best to take me out of that market. Good luck with the venture though!

39

You’ve got it, but I guess it was a stretch. I was going for “Ghost Horse” in Yiddish. Ghost Horse is a winery that sells some very high priced wine.

40

If your project gets off the ground will you be able to disclose the name of the winery? If so, and if it’s Screaming Eagle or Harlan or something else at that level, then you may find some buyers. If not then you’re just spinning your wheels.

A few people have mentioned Jeff Morgan and Leslie Rudd’s project - Covenant - which is a terrific Napa Valley Cabernet Sauvignon but a very tough sell, even when times were good.

Richard