Admittedly, this is not a wine category in which I tend to indulge. I do love Condrieu, but my two favorite producers aren’t or are very rarely imported into the US. Thanks to The Stupids, I was turned onto Robert Niero and Christophe Pichon. I have a couple of bottles of the latter’s '06, but it still needs time. It’s showing a bit too much alcohol right now and is best after many hours in the decanter.
Occasionally, a reasonably-priced Marsanne/Roussanne appears, but this is one area of ‘you get what you pay for’. '05 ESJ Tablas Creek Roussanne is one of those nice exceptions.
I have found 100% Viognier and Condrieu in particular to a very polarising wine/s with many just not liking it/them for reasons such as lack of acidity coupled with, in some cases, oakiness.
I have found most Condrieus disappointing and those that I have liked have been a couple of old vine George Vernay wines and, just once, a 2007 Guigal La Doriane - but they have been pretty expensive beasts. But at least I really liked them.
The only white Rhone we drink quite often is the cheapest one mentioned earlier in the thread; Guigal’s CdR Blanc which has just enough acidity [and is only about half Viognier] to be a really easy drinking wine that goes nicely with food but works on its own too. Definitely a house white in a portfolio that includes good Loire Sauvignon Blancs [like Andre Dezat Sancerres] and Burgundy Chardonnays [like Javillier Cuvee des Forgets].
Yes I have had other enjoyable white Rhones such as Coudoulet de Beaucastel Blanc and with time and patience could like many more but there are too many more easily enjoyable white wines from all over Europe and the rest of the world to spend time looking for and/or learning to enjoy white Rhones.
Should try the Cuilleron VDP Viognier. Not quite as concentrated (or expensive) as the Condrieus, but see less oak so in many ways more vibrant. Had other good VDPs from Villard and some others that do quite nicely as well.
The tough thing about white Rhones is that they can be even more varied in their grape composition than red Rhones. If you aren’t a fan of any one grape in the blend it can stick out to your palate and make it tough to enjoy the other components. It’s then hard to go back into the genre with confidence because the labels can be so uninformative.
I always pick up a few bottles of Condrieu for pique-nique when in the area. It’s perfect for that at ex-cellars prices. At US prices, I’d rather drink something else.
But I do have a fondness for the Pichon and (often but not always) Gaillard. Cuilleron I used to like but either they changed or my palate changed or both, and I can’t stand the stuff anymore.
The Gonon St-Jo is pretty good, too – but, again, not worth the freight IMO.
2006 Clos du Mont-Olivet Châteauneuf-du-Pape Blanc - France, Rhône, Southern Rhône, Châteauneuf-du-Pape (8/5/2009)
This was a pleasant surprise. Bright and well-delineated with just the right amount of fruit richness and minerality. Not at all fat. (90 pts.)
I’m with you, especially with Viognier. Every one I’ve had just seems unpleasantly hot, simple and fat. I’ve had a fair number, including Cuilleron. Just not the wine for me, I guess. I’ve had a few more positive experiences with other white Rhones (e.g. - Rousanne and Marsanne), but they can easily veer into corpulence that is palate-fatiguing. Ultimately I prefer the acidity of wines like Riesling and Chenin Blanc, although I find that Chenin occasionally has a tendency towards heat as well.
Chave Hermitage Blanc and Guigal’s Ex-Voto Blanc Hermitage are two of the greatest white rhone wines I’ve had and can compete with great whites from anywhere. Some Condrieu producers I like are Vernay, Niero, and Cuilleron. Southern Rhone producers I like are Yann Chave, Gonon, Chapoutier (need lots of time), Combier. When you get to CdP it is tougher. Whites are getting better but they are pricey for what they are. Beau has always made good whites but they drink best with 10 plus years of age. Vieux Donjon and Clos des Papes are making good whites. Overall, more disappointments than not.
I’m not a fan of white Rhône wines, and I’ve had some of the best.
Of course, such a generalization needs some qualifying.
On the whole I find them topheavy and lacking in vivacity.
I usually find Condrieu overly aromatic in a displeasing way.
I also think they should uproot the Marsanne and Roussane in Hermitage and plant Syrah there.
Ditto for white CDP, but with Grenache.
But then, I’m a fan of white Bordeaux, which puts me into an even smaller minority than the people who like white Rhône wines!
I love white Rhones. The tendency for many many Condrieu producers to make to be very ripe and over-oaked wines is a relatively recent one. They are very floral, especially when young, some folks like and others hate. As others have mentioned, the top northern Rhone marsanne and roussanne wines are good young or old, and it can be a bit of gamble opening ones just coming out of their shell. I think a lot more Chateauneuf-du-Pape blancs are produced, but I have less experience with them. I like some, but the pricing isn’t great. Hmm, I guess the pricing isn’t great on any white Rhones, except CdR blanc.
Actually, I think these are some of the most underrated wines out there… go figure . In bad examples they can certainly be heavy and pondering but I find that most are fantastic on a dinner table and are perfect substitutes for chardonnay. Seafood, corn, mango salsa (which we made probably 100 times this year… time for a break)… anything that has some richness and heft but calls for a white are good candidates. Interestingly enough, these wines really show the vintage characteristics… the 2006s are very rich, structured wines that display honeyed, waxy characteristics and If you want a fresh, crisp white, aren’t for you. The 2007s are very floral, fruity and easy going but can be big and show a little more finesse than the '06s… but also not the structure. 2008s are some of the best whites I’ve had from the region with a large number showing vibrant acidity to go with the fruit and typical aromatic profile. This was a cooler year and the whites really excelled. Availability on these is an issue though so I don’t think many people get to try many different ones… hence no demand… add to this that they’re not cheap and it shouldn’t be a surprise that all we get are low level Guigal and Chapoutier on the shelves… which really, are good for the price… but there’s lots of variety out there.
Melissa, I’d tend to agree with you, but first I’d split these wines into 2 categories: viognier-based wines, and others. They are very different and often the people I meet who like one don’t like the others. I enjoy Condrieu quite a bit (although I generally find them way too expensive), they remind me of white burgs (with the balance) with added floral elements. The others, though, I don’t get at all (at least the dry ones). I always find some level of oxydation in them (except the youngest hermitages) and I have a HUGE problem with that so these wines are definitely not for me. I do not understand the attraction that some people have for them, but to be totally honest I don’t think I’ve ever met anybody who was really excited about white rhones…
As many have said, obviously a question of stylistic preference.
That being said a good Condrieu (and here I think of La Doriane or Villard’s Les Terrasses du Palat) are to my palate highly enjoyable. I’ve got pretty wide ranging tastes for whites in fact - as long as they’re original and well made I can find a great deal of pleasure in Burgundy, German Rieslings, Loire or S. African Chenin, and Alsacian wines from various varietals.
One aspect about Condrieu - and this runs counter to something someone said above - is they are best enjoyed young, at their most floral. Whenever I’m in a restaurant looking for a white this early drinkability often puts good Condrieu at a price advantage over, say, an aged Burgundy from a good vintage. On top of that - provided you like them of course - a good Condrieu can go wonderfully well with so many food pairings.
I’ve hated 95% of the ones I’ve tried. In fact, if I were to put a list together of the top 10 worst wine puchases I’ve ever made, I feel pretty certain that the '91 & '92 Chapoutier Hermitage Chante Alouette would both be comfortably on that list. As Guillaume already mentioned, I have a lot of difficulty getting by that oxidative element in the wine.
FWIW, my favorite whites tend to come from Chablis, Austria or the Alto Adige.
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. In bad examples they can certainly be heavy and pondering but I find that most are fantastic on a dinner table and are perfect substitutes for chardonnay. Seafood, corn, mango salsa (which we made probably 100 times this year… time for a break)… anything that has some richness and heft but calls for a white are good candidates. Interestingly enough, these wines really show the vintage characteristics… the 2006s are very rich, structured wines that display honeyed, waxy characteristics and If you want a fresh, crisp white, aren’t for you. The 2007s are very floral, fruity and easy going but can be big and show a little more finesse than the '06s… but also not the structure. 2008s are some of the best whites I’ve had from the region with a large number showing vibrant acidity to go with the fruit and typical aromatic profile. This was a cooler year and the whites really excelled. Availability on these is an issue though so I don’t think many people get to try many different ones… hence no demand… add to this that they’re not cheap and it shouldn’t be a surprise that all we get are low level Guigal and Chapoutier on the shelves… which really, are good for the price… but there’s lots of variety out there.