I voted 80+, but I am waiting to hear from @Otto_Forsberg . . .
I thought the whole premise was pretty daft so Iāve been just ignoring the thread.
Iāve tasted enough wines to know that not all grapes are capable of making great or interesting wines, so Iām not for āall varieties matterā. But most, nevertheless.
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It seems that they are important to Marcus and not to you. And Iām not having a go either.
I think there might be some utility in knowing, on average or a probability plot, how many grapes are important to a semi-knowledgeable wine drinker. I suspect the answer for the average Italian wine drinker is much different than the average American wine drinker. And people in the industry might have a different view.
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Not sure of your point here. A grape can be important as a blending grape, I would not say that itās required to be able to stand alone.
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Anyone who doesnāt have Hondarribi Zuri and Hondarribi Beltza on their lists is dead to me. Just sayin.
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My vote is āquite a lotā. 
You get there by the time you consider red, dry white, sweet white, rose, sherry, port, Madeira, vermouth, cognac, Armagnac etc, and consider important wines that are blends, not just varietals.
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Love me some Txakoli!
Although things get quite mixed up with those, as there is no single Hondarrabi (or Hondarribi) Zuri, as it is a synonym for three different varieties - Courbu Blanc probably the most common one.
Then there is also Hondarrabi Zerratia, which is naturally a synonym for Petit Courbu!
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For the average Italian, itās probably the main varieties in his or her commune ā anything from the next town over is presumed to be crap.
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My questions above were meant sincerely. And to be clear, though I disagree, I appreciate that you are actually thinking this through.
Would either or both of these below qualify them under this concept of history?
- Erbaluce was served in Napolean IIIās court around the time that he was setting up the 1855 Classification of Bdx. This was a wine served for āimportant guestsā back then
- Glera (the grape in Prosseco) is thought to be part of "Nobile vinum pucinum"a wine famous from Pliny the Elder mentioning it and a favorite of Augustusās third wife
But you have also tasted terrible wines from grapes that make great wines have you not?
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Indeed I have.
All grapes are capable of making terrible wines. Especially in lousy hands.
Not all grapes are capable of making great wines. Even in deft hands.
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I find the question, Dan and John equally ridiculous.
j/k
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I guess the thing I find curious is that wouldnāt that depend on the particular clone or biotype?
When I think of Catarratto, I have heard so much negative talk about it because it was used to make bulk wine for cutting, which was predominantly Catarratto Comune, but Catarratto Lucido is making some pretty promising wines despite so few iterations with real intention.
What is your thinking to be more or less certain that a grape has no potential to make great wines?
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No. Sure, with some varieties there are clones that make much higher-quality wines than the others - for example it might be quite difficult to make quality wines with a high-yielding clone that doesnāt really suit for quality-oriented farming.
However, there are varieties that just donāt produce wines of any kind of character. They are neutral, bland, lacking intensity, structure and/or freshness. Often they are obscure varieties that have become rare or borderline extinct for a good reason - they just donāt make wines of any interest. Many of these varieties were grown just because they were much easier to cultivate than the finicky varieties that produced higher-quality wines; or they produced very high yields, which was naturally a more important aspect than quality, if the people struggled to get any real money from their wines, no matter if they were of low or high quality. With more wine you had at least more stuff to sell.
Then of course there are some varieties that are bland, flabby and boring and not really good for high-quality wines, yet they remain quite popular and are widely farmed even today - like, say, MĆ¼ller-Thurgau or Chasselas. Then there are those select few producers that prove that yes, it is actually possible to make a surprisingly serious and impressive wines from these varieties (like Tiefenbrunnerās Feldmarschall von Fenner MĆ¼ller-Thurgau or Gonon Chasselas). However, while I do consider these examples to be great wines and probably the absolute peak of their respective varieties, I still really donāt consider them of wines of true greatness.
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That description sounds quite like Catarrattoās history though. How do you determine which grapes, may have a different biotype or clone or may be capable of a different biotype or clone that could produce higher quality more interesting wine, and which grapes cannot?
Was there a Catarratto worth drinking 40 years ago?
With some grapes there just isnāt much clonal difference. Itās easy to determine which cannot if there are just one or two clones of a variety that seems to produce bland, neutral wines even in capable hands who know how to make great wines.
And sure, it is entirely plausible that there are varieties that have not yet produced a clone that can transcend the varietyās inherent blandness and lack of potential for making great wines, but might produce some time in the future. Everythingās always possible. However, Iā, not holding my breath.
The thing with Catarratto is that it came from poor South Italy where very few people were making wines of any quality 40 years ago. Itās so very different today. Almost everywhere in the world where grapevines grow, there are always some quality-oriented producers trying their hands at all kinds of varieties and styles. Catarratto had inherent potential for quality that just required enough resources to be coaxed out. However, what about grape varieties that make just simple, inoffensive everyday wines in deft hands - even when the producers aim for much higher and have the resources to do it?
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I totally agree.
In California, an example that comes to mind is petite sirah. Some will disagree with me, but for the most part, itās hard to coax a complex, interesting wine out of that grape. But Ridge did for years with its York Creek bottling and (Iām dating myself here), once upon a time, in the 1980s, Concannon in Livermore produced some very good petite sirah.
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Petite Sirah is a great example of a variety that can be made into a great wine, but it needs to be made correctly and it often calls for tons of age. A young Petite Sirah isnāt just a particularly fun wine to drink, be it a stern and structured old-school red, or an overripe, heavily oaked modernist red!
And while the variety does hold potential for greatness, it is just way too difficult to realize and a huge majority of Petite Sirah (not just from California, but from everywhere) tends to be disappointing. I feel the variety performs much better in blends where it can firm up some other softer varieties nicely.
This is another important point. Italy may be the best exemplar of this because it was poor but had an extraordinary variety of different vines. Combine that with an increase in wealth, the improved reputation of Italian wine over the decades (which opened up markets), plus a strong desire across the culture to preserve traditions, whether itās dialects, local foods or neglected grape varieties, and you end up with some vinous revelations where you least expected them.
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I think this is a fair point. Maybe slightly overestimated, just because different grapes may require different techniques that might take decades to discover are ideal for that particular grape, but I do agree that a major difference today is the increase in the intention to make good wines in many regions of the world.
I think I am just a bit more agnostic on those grapes. My attitude is generally, āI have yet to taste a great or interesting wine from this grapeā rather than, āit cannot produce it a great or interesting wineā.
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