My sense (and this is based more on Bordeaux but I expect it would apply to California wines also) is that the big, modern styled wines that end up aging well are the wines from better terroir. I give as an example Cos d’Estournal.
And, to answer Cris’ question, I mean age, not hold, and I think there is a big difference between the two.
Right. I’m seeing a lot of narrow view points on this thread. Broad generalizations based on a couple styles and a handful of grape varieties. Of course, grapes for Port aren’t picked overripe, so they don’t lose stuff that dissipates with hang time that can help wine age.
Sugar accumulation is an independent development curve than other ripening factors, other than they’re all functions of time. Volatile aromatics will increase to a peak before declining, as they are released to attract birds to these former forest vines. Depending on grape variety, site, vintage, rootstock, training method, crop load, etc., peak ripeness could be 19 brix or 29 brix and make an excellent wine that will age well.
Anyone have ABVs for other vintages of that Williams-Selyem Zin? I suspect they know what they’re doing… Perhaps it was a vintage anomaly or perhaps just that Zin tends to hit optimal ripeness at higher sugar than the other common varieties we are most familiar with.
People often confuse big with over-ripe. Some varieties just make big wines, while others don’t. A lot of factors can lead to a concentrated wine other than shriveled grapes. It’s normal for a young wine to be fruity. If it’s not, don’t assume it wasn’t in barrel. It might be in a dumb phase, or it might be muted by something like brett or geosmin.
We have our own winery!
I love the plump, sweet, ripe, “pick-nicky” Muscadine! I imagine that our Spanish Conquistadors, my forefathers, drank this wine, from exceptional beach sand terroir, the sweet cut by the saline from sea water and air.
Interesting article at the Prince of Pinot on aged CA pinot noir: Aged California Pinot Noir: Proceed at Your Own Risk | The PinotFile: Volume 10, Issue 48
You do realize Port is fortified and doesn’t complete fermentation? Not even close to what we’re talking about. But I should expect that from you.
And Amarone might be high-octane stuff as well, yet the grapes aren’t picked when overripe, but during the normal harvest period and left in lodges to raisinate. This way they can get the same kind of sugar levels they’d get with excessive hang time, yet still retaining the high acidity necessary for a good wine to survive in a cellar.
So I think that both Port and Amarone were poor analogies in this case.
Let’s read again what you said: “most high octane wines don’t age well past the 7-10 year mark.”
Is port high octane? Is Amarone? Do either “age well?” One might argue that both are noxious from birth, but to the extent they offer anything, what they offer is alleged to improve with age. You now seem to acknowledge that these high octane wines age well, and provide a reason for that. Which proves my point; it isn’t the “octane” that prevents a wine from aging. Dogma is no substitute for experience.
I would think your average Florida pothead would love Chinon!
Key word: MOST.
True. My point – my only point – was that to the extent the wines are made in a style that doesn’t age, it is not the alcohol that prevents it. It is a winemaker’s choice.
I’d add it’s also potentially the source of the alcohol. If it’s from fruit being left to hang until it’s on the verge of falling off the vine that is very different from a fortified wine. An interesting question might be ageability vs. ripeness of fruit.
Taking port out of this thread drift, I’m interested in any views on what happens to acidity with air-dried / cordon cut and other such techniques vs. merely leaving the grapes longer on the vine. For the latter, we know that acidity drops (albeit at differing rates depending on the grape variety).
What about acidity in air-dried grapes? Does it change?
This, in my view, is precisely the right question.
I completely agree with the above.
While acidity/pH are contributing factors to the speed of oxidation, I think that in red wines the ‘oxygen appetite’ of the phenolics are the key. Generally, the riper grapes get, the less ‘oxygen appetite’ their phenolic array has. However, there are times when some of the typical measures of ripeness do not connect with ‘oxygen appetite.’
There can be unusual vintages where the acidity is quite low yet the oxygen appetite is still high (1947 CB).
There can be unusual sites regarding pH: I have seen this with Syrah from a certain site where the pH wants to be just shy of 4.0. The wine hardly shows half of it’s 13 years of age. One of my Zins lives at a higher pH and yet ages as well as its sibling.
There can be processing differences that defy ABV connection. Fortified wines’ alcohol levels do not indicate the level of ‘oxygen appetite’ the grapes had when harvested. Blends of say, very ripe Zinfandel and less ripe (and highly ‘oxygen hungry’) varieties like Petite Syrah, Carignane, etc. are likely to have weak connection between ABV and ‘oxygen appetite.’
It’s complicated.
F
I don’t drink that much Amarone, but that which I have had has not seemed to be deficient in acidity.
Other methods of removing liquid from grapes (eiswein, noble rot, etc.) does not seem to reduce acidity. Not sure why Cabernet, Chardonnay, etc., are low in acidity when picked really late but Riesling is not when left on the vine to qualify as Spatlese or Auslese. Any thoughts?
So, I despise port, can’t stomach amarone, and get squeamish around most zins, syrah and cab north of about 14.5%, and, as a Barolo lover, I also start getting fatigued somewhere around there too. Yet I love Madeira and drink a ton of it at all levels of sweetness. I’ve had the fortune to drink a fairly good bit of old Cali cab, mostly from 70’s and 80’s but also 90’s, over the past 4-5 years.
My thoughts in general have been that higher alcohol wines have -lasted- just fine, but the fruit seems to get a bit pruney and the overall feel a bit harsh, with alcohol, acid and drying up fruit all screaming at each other. 1997 has been a particularly sad set of failures for me, from mostly blue chip producers. I can’t tell you if more than a handful of wines have ended up with increased complexity to the point where it reaches the heights of great Bordeaux (a 74 Mondavi recently was there, but perhaps too-notch ‘74’s and such are exceptions).
As others have said, drink young California cabs without guilt. It’s not like Burgundy, where you are just a frankly bad person, a complete and utter philistine, if you drink GC Burg before age 15. 
Most are meant to be drunk relatively young and perhaps the balance is best like that. I don’t do it often, but I’m usually surprised how much i like them when I do - probably because the upfront tannins tend to balance the sweetness and heaviness. I would not try this experiment with Barolo unless you are truly a masochist though. I realized that i am holding onto a ton of 2010-2015 cab, when i drink a bottle every few weeks, with the forlorn hope that they will age for years and develop secondary flavors and more complexity. I constantly wonder if this is a profound mistake.
The ripest vintages ever for Napa were probably 2003 and 2004 and I’ve not been impressed with how they aged. All seemed best upon release and promptly lost steam.
I was not unusual to see 28-30 brix from vintages 2003- 2007, but it seems like after 07 winemakers pulled back on picking brix. Also, sorting tables got more into vogue and that allowed the worst offending grapes to be removed. Vineyards started getting replanted in the east-west direction instead of north-south, meaning less brutal afternoon sun on many grapes.
The alcohols (on the label) have not changed but the real alcohols have come down a little and the picking brix by a good amount. Most winemakers I know target 26-27 brix. Meaning less water is added to the must and less need for things like sweetspotters as well. I suspect brix might even continue a little lower, as long as we stay away from drought, which is not guaranteed, unfortunately.
I can vouch for this. I’ve met Robert’s friends.
Grape varieties differ noticeably how much they lose acidity after hitting their ripeness. Some varieties have a ridiculously small window of ripeness between the periods of underripeness and overripeness, lasting only a few days. After hitting the point of overripeness, the acidiy levels start to plummet
Then there are varieties like Sercial, Assyrtiko, Mandilaria, Savagnin, Raboso, Tazzelenghe or Juhfark that can retain ridiculously high acidity levels when picked very late into the season. Riesling belongs to this same group as well. Of course this capability of retaining high acidity is more pronounced in cooler climates and even more so in cooler vintages.
Thank you for a fascinating post. I think I need to save the text somewhere (or at least a link) for the next time this topic comes up.