High alcohol wines and aging

The critical issue is to know whose company you keep. Alfert will write reviews of how much he hates 2020 Clos St. Jean during the week between the conference championships and the Superbowl this year. The same is true of some of the others who post on this thread. Haters gotta hate.

If you hate the wine in its youth, you may hate the wine as it ages. That’s OK. More for me. I generally like Cambie wines throughout their aging curve. I have had some older ones, and some older versions of other similar wines that people have predicted would fall apart as they aged, and those predictions have been uniformly wrong.

But there is an exception to every rule, and with Clos St. Jean, for me it is the 2003 La Combe des Fous. That was, if you do not know, an extremely hot year throughout Europe, with elderly people who lived without air conditioning dying all over the place. The winery must have let the grapes hang way too long because the wine really did taste like it was mixed with prune juice and raisin extract. The 2003 entry level cuvee was excellent and the 2005 La Combe des Fous was excellent, but the 2003 LCDF was awful. I own two more and would sell them but for the moral resistance to pawning them off on some unsuspecting soul.

I have an event on Wednesday where I intent to convert some older over the hill wine into Sangria. Maybe I will open one that day and report back.

Two years ago, I had a 1990 Jimsomare that was outstanding.

Had a Turley 2004 Rattlesnake Ridge Petite Syrah over Christmas. Alcohol was over 15% The blue and black fruit competent was still bright and juicy. No port like or raisiny aroma or taste at all. Wine showed no signs of aging on the color. Rhone varietal by a producer that many on this site say makes syrupy over extracted high alcohol fruit bombs not to their liking. Would put this 16 year old up against anything to showcase fruit preservation and balance…

Interesting but not surprising - their Petites have never been ‘over the top’ like most of their zins have historically been. Had an 03 Juvenile Zin a few years back - no bueno . . .

Cheers.

Even well balanced ones aren’t all that light. I love the 11 Rupestris, but it’s at 15%.

How old do you want? I opened this with two clients a few weeks ago and we all agreed that it was outstanding. These two guys have probably had five different bottles with me over the past few years and they both agreed this was outstanding, the best of the lot. Here is m note. ABV is 15.7%

  • 2005 Switchback Ridge Cabernet Sauvignon Peterson Family Vineyard - USA, California, Napa Valley (12/10/2019)
    This is a beautiful wine in a very good place right now. Pop and pour at a client Christmas party. Sorry this is my last bottle because I think it will get better over the next five years or so. It is beginning to show the positive complexity that you get with age. The tannins are softened and the subtle earthy dark fruit is poking its nose out from the background. Still maintains the power of a Napa cabernet without the harshness of youth. Very smooth and silky with lots of assorted red fruit. (94 pts.)

Posted from CellarTracker

Agreed. In fact, their Petite Sirahs might be their best wines.

I am not a fan of CdP but if I wanted to try one to age I might go with Rayas or Beaucastel.

Howard - I can attest to Rayas. While I stand by my general comments regarding CdP, I’ve had those at over 20 years and they can be really good. Most recently it was the 1989. I didn’t have it on release, so can’t say whether it transformed from what it was, but it was beautifully bright and fresh.

So…I still stand by my generalization.
The “not always” is the key phrase here.
Usually, I think they evolve as I describe.
But I, too, have had plenty of exceptions. The Ridges are great examples of some (not always) evolve well. The Carlisles as well. But plenty of Alban (TN’s on a bunch of Albans coming soon), plenty of SQN, many ( but not all) Turleys, JeffCohn… the list goes on&on, that don’t.
How to predict which ones do well?? Haven’t a clue. Guess I should try & taste more wines!!
Tom

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Cabernet or Zin? I had a 1984 Jimsomare Cab several years back that was really good. I doubt the alcohol was that high, however.

Yes. I don’t own a single bottle of CdP, but I have had a couple of bottles of Rayas from the late 80s that friends have opened that were very nice.

Our tasting group did a Zin tasting back in December, where 2000 and 2001 Ridge Zins showed extremely well and on a “youthful” side, still. Though 2004 Neal, of all things, gave them a run for their money.

But. The star of the night was a bottle of '97 Alban Reva, showing extremely well on all cards (popped it prior to official flights). My pre-tasting assumption was “Hell, I am sure its old and tired by now and alcohol will be the main feature, let’s just get done with it”. Wrong, on all counts. Alas, my last bottle of it.

Randy Dunn on this subject:

Tasting test

It was a tasting in St. Helena of cult Cabernets from the 2004 vintage, including Dunn’s own, that sparked his current crusade.

“I got to taste all these wines, every one of them - there were like 18 of them - and I was just disgusted at the way they tasted. And I got samples of all these wines and sent them to the lab and the average was 15.6 (percent alcohol), and I said this is the last … straw. I’ve got to do something.”

He reached out to UC Davis sensory researcher Hildegarde Heymann, curious whether the level of alcohol in wine could affect a taster’s palate. With King’s help, they gathered two dozen Cabernets. Volunteers tasted the wines in various orders: lower alcohol before higher, higher before lower, and randomly.

There was an unmistakable impact. Exact effects varied, but tasters who began with low-alcohol wines found more viscosity in higher-alcohol samples and could better discern alcohol content. Those who began with higher alcohols found the lower-alcohol samples herbal or vegetal, with a coarser texture.

It affirmed Dunn’s longtime assertion. Start with a wine at lower alcohol of around 13.8 percent, he says, and “that wine is just delicious to you.” But start with an alcohol around 15 percent, then go and taste the lower one, “and it tastes like water.”
Fight to change groupings

Of course, Napa isn’t about to wake up and return to 12 percent table wines tomorrow. Even Dunn acknowledges that “the bottom line is, they’ve got to sell these wines, and it’s really difficult to sell a Cabernet that’s less than 14 percent alcohol because you’re not going to get the good scores.”

If, he surmised, alcohol levels weren’t going to shrink, perhaps wines should be tasted in context; those below 14 percent tasted together, and the same with bigger wines. The 14 percent dividing line is hardly arbitrary; it’s the point at which the federal government levies a higher tax, which once kept many winemakers from crossing it.

But he also felt that more modest wines were the losers in a ripeness arms race - that critics’ high scores were pushing drinkers’ tastes toward that blockbuster style. “It is time for the average wine consumers, as opposed to tasters, to speak up,” Dunn wrote in a 2007 open letter.

That prompted a kind of chicken-egg aspect to the debate. Had wines gotten riper because critics praised them? Or were high scores due praise for wines that consumers happen to prefer?

The critic most targeted by Dunn’s criticism has been James Laube of the Wine Spectator. While the magazine does give higher scores to higher-alcohol wines, Laube acknowledges, "it comes down to each critic’s assessment of character and complexity based on experience and exposure to a wide range of wine, and in my case I can find examples of wines I like or like less on both sides of the ledger.

“There is plenty of room for all kinds and styles of wines. If consumers didn’t like the style of wines, they wouldn’t buy them.”
Altering alcohol levels

Dunn’s Cabernets are an acquired taste for reasons that have nothing to do with alcohol. His tough, tannic style comes from defiantly old-fashioned winemaking, including vigorous pumping of the wine with a “fire hose” and a lengthy 36-month stay in barrels.

Aside from the underground cave he built in 1989, he has brushed away most modern advances. He will not, for instance, use a sorting table, which helps winemakers remove subpar grapes and debris. Dunn makes a point of crushing his grapes with bits of stem still intact, a departure from most Napa wineries’ manicuring of their fruit in order to avoid anything that might add those fearsome herbal flavors.

Don’t mistake Dunn for a Luddite, though. While he picks his grapes at modest ripeness, even he can’t avoid tipping past 14 percent at harvest.

That has made him the rare winemaker to openly advocate perhaps the wine industry’s most secretive technique: the use of reverse osmosis equipment to alter a wine’s alcohol level. Wine is passed through a semipermeable membrane that filters out some water and alcohol, and when blended back together, the alcohol level can be dialed down without losing ripe flavors.

While such techniques are a widespread reality - by one industry estimate, up to 60 percent of California wine receives some treatment - typically it is done with utter discretion, often behind the seal of a nondisclosure agreement.

For Dunn, it is simply a newer alternative to techniques he used early in his career - in vintages when grapes arrived too ripe for his taste.

“Historically, we used to water,” he says. “We were picking in big gondolas, and then you’d tip them up over the crusher, and then you’d hose it out,” with the water dripping into the grape must below.

These days, up on the mountain, Dunn is handing more winery duties to his children. His son Mike now runs the cellar, while his daughter Kristina handles marketing. He still flies his twin-engine Turbo Commander from the nearby Angwin airstrip. This current crusade strikes me as the work of a man who has put in his time, and sees nothing to lose by tweaking a few noses.
‘They all taste the same’

Dunn is keenly aware that his sentiments put him at odds with the majority of Napa’s prestigious wineries. But there’s something intensely personal in the mix. His disdain for higher alcohol, it seems, isn’t just about scores or cooked-fruit flavors. It’s that these blockbuster wines might be sacrificing their signature of place - a place that has given Randy Dunn a good life’s work.

“In the old days, it was very easy to tell Spring Mountain from Rutherford from Stags Leap,” he says. “Now, what is it? They all taste the same. And I get this feedback from some of my old-time mailing-list people that I see in New York or D.C. or somewhere: ‘We quit buying California wines except yours.’ Well, really, why? ’ ‘Cause they all taste the same.’ And that’s right, they do.”

Stan - A very interesting read, though almost certainly a copyright infringement to paste in the article in its entirety.

champagne.gif

Thanks anyway!

FYI, I tasted five different producers’ Bedrock Vineyard zins blindly this evening. The 15.8% Turley version was tied for 4th of 5. It had a sweetish nose, with jammy fruit scents, and there was a trace of tawny port-like fruit on the palate.

The only wine rated lower by the group was the 2016 Wilde Farm “natural” wine, which has a boatload of VA and funk – defective levels for all seven tasters, who nearly all ranked it last. (Sulfur isn’t necessarily a bad thing, to paraphrase Jay Miller.)

The 2016 Ridge “Hooker Creek” (=Bedrock), 2018 Bedrock Bedrock and 2017 Once and Future (Joel Peterson), all at lower ABVs, were all far superior – more balanced and enjoyable.

These aren’t aged, but I certainly wouldn’t lay bets on the Turley evolving into something better.

It was just part of the article plus a link. Standard stuff.

Turley Zins do age. Not sure they gain a lot, but they don’t lose anything - at least when it comes to single vineyard releases. I just had an 08 Mead Ranch and it was great. Big and brambly blackberry fruit. No heat to speak of even though it’s right around 16% ABV. I’ve heard that Carlisle and Bedrock Zins age well also, but I drink mine too fast to be able to personally attest to that.

Here individual preferences vary a lot. I’ve had a number of mature Turleys over the years that I found distinctly alcoholic and unbalanced. But I’ve often had them with people who loved them.

Plus, if they don’t really improve, what was the point of aging?

For zin, 14.8% was never crazy high.

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