Help me get excited about white wine

[Steve_Costigan]

I’ll spew some heresy. If you have 3x as many reds as whites as you said in your OP, you have too many whites. I have over recent years increasingly found too many ordinary wines among increasingly overly ambitiously priced whites (I’m talking a wide range from USA, France, Italy). It’s ok to chuckle at white Burgundy. I’ll keep a few white northern Rhones for some fish or veal dishes and I’ll buy the DeLille Chaleur blanc annually. I’ve been very pleased with 10-20 year old German and Austrian rieslings, however, and regret only not putting more of them away in the cellar. I’d say whites are more occasional role players than worker bees.

[Noah_C]

Thanks for all the great thoughts, comments, and questions. Keep ‘em coming! There are quite a few general questions about my situation and what I tend to drink. I am a single dude who lives in a small apartment (not a lot of storage space), without regular access to big tastings or tons of extra income (so I won’t be buying up Montrachet-thanks for the tip though). I have little interest in cellaring for the long term.

I do enjoy the usual suspects: German and Alsatian Riesling, whites from Cote D’Or and Chablis, W Coast Chardonnays, Italian whites from various indigenous varieties. I buy these wines, but not at the same rate as reds, and I drink them way more frequently. I oftentimes cook a nice dinner, want a nice white to drink, and realize that I have tons of reds and only a few whites to choose from, most of which won’t fit the bill for one reason or another.

There have been lots of questions/suggestions, so I’ll respond to them individually below:

Sicilian carricante
Friulian ribolla/friulano/blends
Piemontese timorasso & erbaluce
Soave garganega
Abruzzese trebbiano & pecorino

I’ve had, and enjoyed, most of these. I’m a huge fan of Soave. Need to try a few more Carricantes. But again, while I’ve enjoyed these, they don’t hold the same sway for me as parsing through classed growth Bordeaux or the various vineyards of red Burgundy.

Oregon Chardonnay. Specifically, Goodfellow and Walter Scott that have real first hand experience with. There are a few others that many here love from Oregon.

You could also do the Blanc de Blanc from Goodfellow. Wine crack I think is what some buyers call it.

Great suggestion. I’ve really enjoyed a few OR Chards, esp a totally bangin’ 2014 from St Innocent. I’ve been a little turned off by a nearly $100 bottle from Lingua Franca that was quite bland. Time to re-visit.

if you get a good 1er Cru white Burgundy with about 20 years of age, they can be amazing.

I’ve had exactly two aged white Burgundies that did not disappoint; a 1990 Corton Charlemagne and a 1998 Chassagne Montrachet village. I’ve paid significant money for white Burgundies with age that were very unimpressive- many of which I would rate a solid C/C+ and a few that went down the drain. Way too much investment for such a hit or miss category. For me, at least.

White Bordeaux? Dry and sweet.

Very good suggestion. I’ve only had good experiences with Sauternes, though I was originally asking about dry wines. I did recently buy an Ygrec and an aged Laville Haut Brion. Not cheap, but I’m excited to try them!

Out of curiosity, what’s your price point for white burgundy? A bit hard to give advice on burgundy without that.

I’d like to keep it below $150 per bottle, ideally below $100. I’d love to hear any advice you may have, but I my experience is such a high rate of failure with these wines.

Drink more Chablis.

I love Chablis. I really do. But I rarely spend my money on these bottles these days because I’ve personally very disappointed with the direction Chablis is going. There is increasing richness, oak, and frankly, flabbiness creeping into Chablis these days. This is the exact antithesis of what I’m looking for in Chablis! The last straw was when I recently paid >$100 on a 2016 Moreau Clos des Hospices that got superb CT reviews. I was so disappointed. The cork was clearly flimsy and seemed to perhaps have leaked (at 5 yrs old!) and the wine was overdeveloped and fat. A failed cork can happen to any producer, but I’ve had more corked/cooked/oxidized/oaky Chablis than is worth the money for me. I’ve largely given up on the region to spend money on, which is a shame, bc I used to love it.

Leeuwin Art Series Chardonnay and throw them in the cellar. Buy some Enfield chard and drink some now and cellar the rest. Grab some great Alsace whites and roast some pork and apples and swoon. Grab some Georges Vernay Condrieu and blow your socks off then hide a few in the back of the cellar to forget about for 12 years.

I’ve had Leeuwin Art Series once and it was fantastic. As mentioned above, I don’t have storage to cellar these, and sourcing properly aged bottles has proven difficult. But I’m always keeping an eye out. Love Alsace! I’ll look out for Enfield and Vernay- thanks!

“Rieslings can be great, but I’m just not in the mood for a Riesling most of the time.”

Them is fighting words! Germany, Alsace, and Austria have Rieslings for every occasion. Cinderella’s slipper is to be found.

I really do like Riesling. But the aromatic profile is so distinctive, that I’m just not always in the mood for a big petrol bomb. My drinking partner really detests it, so if we’re sharing a bottle Riesling is out of the question. I also never know how sweet a bottle is going to be, which is tough. Sure, and Auslese is usually going to be sweet, but I’ve had a Kabinett that tastes about as sweet as a Sprite. I applaud producers who are starting to put a sweetness scale on the back label. I do love a good Riesling though, esp with age….from time to time.

Grüner Veltliner

Absolutely. Any recommendations? I feel like there is so much swill when it comes to Gruner, and some really amazing stuff. But I’m not sure how to sort it all out. Also, I had a 1992 Gruner last year that blew my mind. Would love to have some more aged stuff, I just don’t know where to get it!

So having said that, there are wines I do get really excited about…I get excited when I find them because they are difficult to source and hard to find most years. I like a balance of German Riesling, OR Chardonnay, and whites from most French regions. So there is this exciting adventure in trying & finding new white wines from regions I have not had much experience with. So finding new wines that I want to build a long-term relationship with is the fun with white wines.

I love this. Thank you!

The premise that 3/4 of white Burgs are premoxed or underwhelming is part of the problem here. There’s plenty of amazing white Burgs that won’t break the bank.

That’s been my experience. At least for me, there is a failure rate among these bottles that is just unacceptable, regardless of price range. And as the price climbs, quality does not seem to necessarily improve. Admittedly I’m only spending up to around $150 per bottle, but many of these have been just not-that-good. And if spending more than this is required for a good probability of a white Burg experience, than it’s too rich for my blood.

If I had to pick a few for real excitement, they would be:
Northern Rhone whites, especially Hermitage.
Pessac-Leognan in Bordeaux.
Hunter Valley Semillon (but good luck finding the right stuff).

Thanks for the post-. I cut out most of it for brevity, but lots of great stuff in there. I’ve had a coupe amazing N Rhone experiences (2004 Chapoutier Le Meal and 2000 Chave Hermitage). Neither were cheap, but both were well worth it. I’ve been a little hesitant to invest in the category bc of the “dumb” phase I keep hearing about. I’m certainly interested in Bordeaux (see above. Hunter Valley Semillon is something I’ve looked into but can’t find it most of the time. I’m interested, but can’t see this as ever being more than a couple bottles in my collection bc of availability.

what whites are you drinking exactly? it sounds like you listed off most of the ones drank most often by the community as a whole with a reason you’re not excited about them. but then you say you drink more of it. so I’m curious what you’re drinking? sounds like you’re already plenty excited about whites in general. are you hoping to get more excited about AGING whites? if thats the case, the best way to do that I think is to have some aged white wines that impress you. but I would agree with others, it can be a minefield and often as not the wines are at least as good young as aged. except riesling. that stuff is just always good.

I’m drinking the “usual suspects”, but more often as daily drinkers than anything. My original post was referring to “collectible” whites I guess. I’m not interested in aging the wines for myself, I simply don’t have the room, but am interested in having something special to pair with a carefully prepared dinner. Something in the $50-$150 range.

That was a huge post. Thanks again everyone, and I’d love to keep hearing your thoughts and suggestions!

Noah

[Guillermo_M]

Have you tried,
Artemis Karamolegos Papas Single Vineyard Assyrtiko, or
Domaine du Pelican Savagnin Arbois Ouille Grand Curoulet?

[Noah_C]

Have you tried,
Artemis Karamolegos Papas Single Vineyard Assyrtiko, or
Domaine du Pelican Savagnin Arbois Ouille Grand Curoulet?

Neither! I’ve have a few wonderful Assyrtiko wines, more or a mixed experienced with Jura. But I’ll look into it, thanks!

[Adam_Frisch]

I really do like Riesling. But the aromatic profile is so distinctive, that I’m just not always in the mood for a big petrol bomb. My drinking partner really detests it, so if we’re sharing a bottle Riesling is out of the question. I also never know how sweet a bottle is going to be, which is tough. Sure, and Auslese is usually going to be sweet, but I’ve had a Kabinett that tastes about as sweet as a Sprite. I applaud producers who are starting to put a sweetness scale on the back label. I do love a good Riesling though, esp with age….from time to time.

Many producers find the petrol-note to be a fault and try to avoid it. As for not knowing sweetness level, well, you’re preaching to the choir my friend! It’s impossible to know from label with current classification system!

Have you tried some Australian Rieslings? They’re leading the charge in the bone dry segment, I find. Grosset, Pewsey Vale, Leeuwen etc - all world class Rieslings.

[Chuck_Miller]

Hi everyone, This is a tough question to formulate, so I hope it makes sense to you all. Here is the short version (skip the rest of the post if you’d like): I want to get more excited about collecting white wines, and would like to hear your thoughts. How do I get more excited about whites?

Here’s the background. I love reds and whites both. Somehow, I’ve found that I drink way more whites, but for some reason get more excited about reds. So I buy more reds, drink more whites, and now CellarTracker tells me I have over 3X as many reds as whites. I want to even this out and I think the way to do it is to get more excited about whites- help me!

Part of it is that I’ve run into issues with many categories whites, at least for my personal palate (and wallet!). US Chardonnays can be nice, but are too often overblown for my taste. White Burgundies are so expensive and so many of them (probably 2/3 to ¾) have been either underwhelming or overtly flawed. Rieslings can be great, but I’m just not in the mood for a Riesling most of the time. Champagne is great of course, but I’m often enjoying wine solo and it usually won’t keep for more than a day or two. I’m very sensitive to that cat smell, which makes Sauv Blanc a minefield. Chenin can be good, I’m not super experienced with it, but haven’t been taken yet by any of the higher end stuff.

And yet, like I said, I drink white wine at least twice as often as reds. I drink and enjoy all sorts of whites- I just haven’t felt whites to be as compelling. Thoughts?

Thanks!
Noah

A few thought, take them for what they’re worth (which ain’t much).

First, it’s not our job to get you excited about white wines. You already seem to be, so you are half way there. Second, given the typical aging curve, just keep buying about 50/50 red v. white, and drink the whites while the reds age, Third, invest (not buy) in a Coravin. Fourth, find a friend who is already passionate about white wines and let them bring the whites while you bring the reds. I have a friend who has an incredible amount of Raveneau, Coche and Ravenneau in his cellar, and I am happy to bring bottles of Rayas and Dujac to balance things out.

[Yao_C]

Drink more Chablis.

I love Chablis. I really do. But I rarely spend my money on these bottles these days because I’ve personally very disappointed with the direction Chablis is going. There is increasing richness, oak, and frankly, flabbiness creeping into Chablis these days. This is the exact antithesis of what I’m looking for in Chablis! The last straw was when I recently paid >$100 on a 2016 Moreau Clos des Hospices that got superb CT reviews.

Have you tried Louis Michel? It seems to tick all the boxes you’re looking for. I’ve never had a transcendent bottle but many solidly enjoyable ones

[Chris_Foley]

As far as buying wines that need to be aged, there is a world class wine storage facility an hour north of you in CT, not too far off of I-84.

[Howard_Cooper]

I do enjoy the usual suspects: German and Alsatian Riesling, whites from Cote D’Or and Chablis, W Coast Chardonnays, Italian whites from various indigenous varieties. I buy these wines, but not at the same rate as reds, and I drink them way more frequently. I oftentimes cook a nice dinner, want a nice white to drink, and realize that I have tons of reds and only a few whites to choose from, most of which won’t fit the bill for one reason or another.

Since you enjoy German rieslings, I suggest you try 2019 Maximin Grunhauser Herrenberg Kabinett. If that does not get you excited, I am not sure what white wines will.

[Sarah_Kirschbaum]

I do enjoy the usual suspects: German and Alsatian Riesling, whites from Cote D’Or and Chablis, W Coast Chardonnays, Italian whites from various indigenous varieties. I buy these wines, but not at the same rate as reds, and I drink them way more frequently. I oftentimes cook a nice dinner, want a nice white to drink, and realize that I have tons of reds and only a few whites to choose from, most of which won’t fit the bill for one reason or another.

Since you enjoy German rieslings, I suggest you try 2019 Maximin Grunhauser Herrenberg Kabinett. If that does not get you excited, I am not sure what white wines will.

Dry ones, maybe.

[Greg_K]

Out of curiosity, what’s your price point for white burgundy? A bit hard to give advice on burgundy without that.

I’d like to keep it below $150 per bottle, ideally below $100. I’d love to hear any advice you may have, but I my experience is such a high rate of failure with these wines.

Drink more Chablis.

I love Chablis. I really do. But I rarely spend my money on these bottles these days because I’ve personally very disappointed with the direction Chablis is going. There is increasing richness, oak, and frankly, flabbiness creeping into Chablis these days. This is the exact antithesis of what I’m looking for in Chablis! The last straw was when I recently paid >$100 on a 2016 Moreau Clos des Hospices that got superb CT reviews. I was so disappointed. The cork was clearly flimsy and seemed to perhaps have leaked (at 5 yrs old!) and the wine was overdeveloped and fat. A failed cork can happen to any producer, but I’ve had more corked/cooked/oxidized/oaky Chablis than is worth the money for me. I’ve largely given up on the region to spend money on, which is a shame, bc I used to love it.

Based on the above, I expect you’re just trying the wrong white Burgs. $150 is a pretty reasonable number - there’s a ton of great white Burg within that. But, for example, I wouldn’t expect a 2016 Moreau Le Clos to be all that precise and linear - 2016 is a really rough vintage for White Burgundy, grand cru Chablis can run a lot fatter than 1er crus. GC Chablis also needs quite a bit of time. Try a 2017 Pattes Loup 1er cru, see how you like it.

Meanwhile, if you’re buying older white burgundy (pre 2010), yeah, you’re going to have a premox hitrate. That’s just the way it goes - unless you’re buying Coche/Raveneau.

[Guillermo_M]

First, it’s not our job to get you excited about white wines. You already seem to be, so you are half way there.

Why would you say it that way even after editing it? He’s not saying it’s our job. He’s just asking for help.

Here’s a better way:
“First, you already seem to be excited about white wines, so you are half way there.”

See, no snark. No complaining. No negativity.

[Scott_Watkins]

I drink plenty of great Chablis and Riesling but recently I popped an old favorite 2019 Collestefano Verdicchio di Matelica shit that was really exciting for all of $14. The 20’s are out go buy a case and thank me later.

[ChrisJames]

I’ll spew some heresy. If you have 3x as many reds as whites as you said in your OP, you have too many whites. I have over recent years increasingly found too many ordinary wines among increasingly overly ambitiously priced whites (I’m talking a wide range from USA, France, Italy). It’s ok to chuckle at white Burgundy. I’ll keep a few white northern Rhones for some fish or veal dishes and I’ll buy the DeLille Chaleur blanc annually. I’ve been very pleased with 10-20 year old German and Austrian rieslings, however, and regret only not putting more of them away in the cellar. I’d say whites are more occasional role players than worker bees.

Perhaps not heresy, but certainly not gospel truth either. Ten years ago, I drank 99.9% reds - in part due to a bitchy (ex) wife who refused to drink whites. All great stuff, predominantly Northern Italian reds. Gradually, I’ve moved to now drinking 75% whites. In the last three months, that might be 95% whites as I can no longer pair red wines with warm weather. This also reflects my purchasing. The world is awash with delightful, delicious, versatile whites wines and I rarely spend over $35/bottle. I also tend to enjoy my whites best young (from release to eight year old range) as I crave freshness and acidity over aged fruit flavors. I still have a cellar full of reds which is just fine as I like reds well aged. However, I am finding that reds are now the occasional role players and whites are the joy-inducing worker bees. Perhaps you’d find them ordinary, but I surely don’t.

[Tomas_Costa]

No love for Albariño?

[Rob_S1]

I had a 2019 Matias Riccitelli Blanco de la Casa a month or so ago, a super high altitude Mendoza white 40% old vine Semillon, 40% Sauvignon Blanc and 20% Chardonnay which blew my socks off. Not a lot of $30 reds can blow your socks off…

[John_Glas]

2015 Evesham Wood Chardonnay Mahonia Vineyard - USA, Oregon, Willamette Valley (6/28/2021)
Brother in Town Lot’s of Wines!!!; 6/26/2021-7/4/2021: Day 1: One if not the best Domestic Chardonnay I have ever tasted. This is high end Burgundy without the price point. Flint, spice, shells, orange peel, saline, tart apples and dust. Aged in neutral French Oak. Medium to long finish and amazing acidity. This is a must have in a blind White Burgundy tasting. 95 points
Day 2: Has not lost any complexity and maybe even more vibrant than day 1. For under $40.00 this is an amazing steal. 95+
Recommendation: Buy this immediately. I can’t believe they still have 20 cases of this wine left but my brother and I just took one of their hands. (95 points)

This is the best wine I have tasted all year. Still some left which is hard to believe.

[RichardFlack]

I posted a thread recently on three white grapes that don’t get no respect. All of them make ageworthy dry whites:
Chenin Blanc
Pinot Blanc
Semillon

……

Albeit Cartology among others combines 1 & 3 in one stellar package.

[B_Stewart]

Noah, I love your enthusiasm and your honesty, but I think you’ve set yourself up for failure here.

You want to buy collectable, cellar-worthy whites, but you want someone else to do the collecting and the cellaring before you buy them.

I am a single dude who lives in a small apartment (not a lot of storage space), without regular access to big tastings or tons of extra income (so I won’t be buying up Montrachet-thanks for the tip though). > I have little interest in cellaring for the long term.



I’ve had Leeuwin Art Series once and it was fantastic. As mentioned above, > I don’t have storage to cellar these, and sourcing properly aged bottles has proven difficult. > But I’m always keeping an eye out.



I’m not interested in aging the wines for myself, I simply don’t have the room> , but am interested in having something special to pair with a carefully prepared dinner.

You’ve been picking up old white wines at retail or auction, hoping for the best, but the results have been a frustrating mess. Too many are expensive duds and the winners are impossible to replicate. It just isn’t working.

The last straw was when I recently paid >$100 on a 2016 Moreau Clos des Hospices that got superb CT reviews. I was so disappointed.The cork was clearly flimsy and seemed to perhaps have leaked (at 5 yrs old!) and the wine was overdeveloped and fat

We all know, when buying old whites, every bottle is a risk you’re taking on provenance and storage. Because you won’t age the whites yourself, it’s a risk you have to take. You may or may not like white Burgundy. You also may or may not be paying retail for bad wine someone else sold off (do a search for “11 bottle auction lots” and see what comes up!). There’s no way to know for sure.

I’ve paid significant money for white Burgundies with age that were very unimpressive- many of which I would rate a solid C/C+ and a few that went down the drain. Way too much investment

But the bigger problem is you’ve limited your buying choices to whatever old whites you can find at retail. Think about this a sec. The vast majority of the best white Burgundy, pristine and carefully aged, does not make it to retail. Neither does just about all other collectable, ageworthy whites with have little or no resale value. I will venture a guess that it’s easier to find aged Montrachet than aged Gruner.

I had a 1992 Gruner last year that blew my mind. > Would love to have some more aged stuff, I just don’t know where to get it!

Maybe the worst part is, when you do find something you love, your “no cellaring” rule actually stops you from pulling the trigger. Madness!

I’ve had a coupe amazing N Rhone experiences (2004 Chapoutier Le Meal and 2000 Chave Hermitage). Neither were cheap, but both were well worth it. > I’ve been a little hesitant to invest in the category bc of the “dumb” phase I keep hearing about.

I say it’s time to bite the bullet and start laying stuff down. If you can afford $150 for a white Burg, you can afford wine storage. I’m guessing a Vinotemp is probably too big, so look for offsite storage. Don’t worry if it isn’t close by. For years, I had an offsite 50 min from my house (without traffic); it kept my greedy hands off the juice.

Don’t stop buying old whites for the near term. Start buying young whites for the long term (like whomever made the 92 Gruner you loved). Will every young wine you buy turn out to be a winner? No. Will you buy wines today you don’t like tomorrow? Probably. Will you end up with a cellar full of pristine, aged whites, including many of your favorites?
Absolutely!

[Lee_Short]

Hi everyone, This is a tough question to formulate, so I hope it makes sense to you all. Here is the short version (skip the rest of the post if you’d like): I want to get more excited about collecting white wines, and would like to hear your thoughts. How do I get more excited about whites?

Here’s the background. I love reds and whites both. Somehow, I’ve found that I drink way more whites, but for some reason get more excited about reds. So I buy more reds, drink more whites, and now CellarTracker tells me I have over 3X as many reds as whites. I want to even this out and I think the way to do it is to get more excited about whites- help me!

Part of it is that I’ve run into issues with many categories whites, at least for my personal palate (and wallet!). US Chardonnays can be nice, but are too often overblown for my taste. White Burgundies are so expensive and so many of them (probably 2/3 to ¾) have been either underwhelming or overtly flawed. Rieslings can be great, but I’m just not in the mood for a Riesling most of the time. Champagne is great of course, but I’m often enjoying wine solo and it usually won’t keep for more than a day or two. I’m very sensitive to that cat smell, which makes Sauv Blanc a minefield. Chenin can be good, I’m not super experienced with it, but haven’t been taken yet by any of the higher end stuff.

And yet, like I said, I drink white wine at least twice as often as reds. I drink and enjoy all sorts of whites- I just haven’t felt whites to be as compelling. Thoughts?

Thanks!
Noah

First of all – Many of the best white wines will show well young, but only with significant air. Are you tracking the evolution of the wines over time? Try opening a bottle or two with lunch on Saturday, and have a 100 mL pour right when opened and leave the bottle uncorked. Have three more pours, spaced at three hour intervals. Cork the bottle overnight. That leaves just under half the bottle for Sunday, where you can start with another 100 mL pour with brunch, and go from there. Save the last pour for Monday. If you do this with different wines from different regions and styles, I think you’ll quickly get a good feel for how to the get most mileage out of the bottles you open. EDIT: The first wine you should do this with is Louis Michel Chablis “Montee de Tonnerre.” Preferably the 2017.

Second – What “US Chardonnays” are we talking about here? There’s a wide range, sure, so I’d totally understand if you found many of them overblown. Good candidates to start with include Twill Cellars, St Innocent, Goodfellow, Mt Eden, Evesham Wood, Vincent, Walter Scott, Crowley, Kelley Fox. I’d be surprised if you find any of these overblown, but you might. In PNW white field blends, I love what Loop de Loop and Championship Bottle are doing.

Third – Look around the world some more. As others have pointed out, there are enough great whites from Italy alone to keep a man happy for a lifetime, and most of these have the acid cranked up past 11. See Your Top 5 Italian White Wines - WINE TALK - WineBerserkers . There are also great whites from Austria, Spain, Australia, etc. My top picks would be Albarino from Do Ferriero and Nanclares. And for summer refreshment, Txakolina. If you can’t get excited about that on hot day, you must be able to kill a party by walking in the door.

Fourth – What kind of Rieslings have you been trying? The Austrian style of Riesling might be just the kick in the pants you need. Try the Nigl “Privat” and of course Alzinger.