Have We Reached Peak Rosé?

WINE TALK
21

Commercial post: I sell Rose wine. I have sold over half a million bottles this year, with some sales still to come.

I found some surprises in this thread. I subscribe to the Economist and read it through every week, but haven’t gotten to this article yet (if it’s in the American edition). A big surprise is that the Economist would publish such a poorly researched piece.

A few facts:

  1. About 3 years ago, France’s sales of Rose whizzed past sales of white and have only gone up since then, while sales of white continue to be flat at best.
  2. I have heard from credible sources that Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie are no longer married, or a couple.
  3. I have heard that they no longer own Chateau Miraval, an Estate whose wines I once imported. This is a Domaine capable of producing really excellent wine, although I haven’t had it for a few vintages.
  4. Sales of Rose are still increasing rapidly, although supply is increasing even more rapidly, which in turn means that
  5. Suppliers, importers and distributors of Rose have found that despite the booming market, they have ‘stocks in excess of requirements’, in the excruciatingly polite term of British auctioneers.

I personally have been afflicted by this, but have gotten through it; I am fortunate to have almost no excess inventory at this time.

The Wine Advocate’s reviewer for Mediterranean France wrote:
“Whoever kicked off this craze for bland, uninteresting wine should be heralded across Provence as a f***ing genius. I suspect the big landowners can now own yachts, instead of just having their wine served on yachts.”

As this indicates, the problem with most Roses, not only from Provence, is that they are cropped for gargantuan yields, with inevitably insipid wines the result. But the word ‘Provence’ is magical and vast quantities of Ptrid Swll are legally sold with these Appellations. IMO the world’s best Roses are from Provence. IMO they represent well under 10% of the production.

Caveat Emptor.

Dan Kravitz

22

I think to me the point is that Rose is a broad category, like Red. A gamut of styles and quality from dreck to excellent.
I have no stats to prove this but my suspicion is that the distribution is skewed more to dreck than for Reds or Whites. Or maybe one step up “mostly harmless” in the immortal words of D Adams. (But, yes the other end of the distribution is very good indeed)

Which brings me back to my original (implied) question, “why all the fuss”. Tables of all sorts of Rose from all countries and of all qualities ( but with a skew to $20 Can Provencales). You never see that with “Reds”, it would be more specific, “Argentine Malbec”, or whatever.

It’s the indiscriminate nature of all this makes me think a correction is due.

23

Try 2018 Meinklang Pinot Noir Frizzante Rosé, perfect for very hot days.

24

Two more.
IMG_9484.jpg
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25

I certainly hope it hasn’t peaked. I have got a few to sell.

I will give you $10 for all and you throw in free next day! [cheers.gif]

26

What about Lancers? It always gets short shrift.

We saw lots of Mateus when we were in Portugal this summer. I was surprised and amused

27

Oh yeah! Forgot about Lancers

28

I like both of those–a lot. Heretical question----is Rose (one of) the hardest wine(s) to make well? I have enjoyed almost everything from the Vogelzang vineyard in Santa Barbara area (e.g. Tercero, Liquid Farm). Love Tempier. Love Cotat Rose when I can get it. Have had a lot of swill too. And I do think it’s hard to get right…I’ve had Bruno Clair’s Marsannay Rose, and I didn’t do cartwheels (though I did like PYCM’s)

29

I am not sure it is hard to make. But I would say that it is not easy to make a very good - great one. Tough to get the balance just right. As a side note I opened 7 last week for 5 people. Everyone seemed to like a different wine.

30

Is Rose ‘hard’ to make? Depends upon your definition of ‘hard’. To me, it is the most ‘transparent’ of the wines that I make - very few decisions to make from grape to bottle and into bottle quite quickly. Totally ‘different’ than a white wine that is barrel aged and fermented for up to 16 months or reds that are aged for up to 3 years. And this somewhat comes to back to discussions that we’ve had here earlier - can a wine be ‘great’ if meant for short term consumption (1-4 years) only?

Cheers.

31

Heretical question----is Rose (one of) the hardest wine(s) to make well? I have enjoyed almost everything from the Vogelzang vineyard in Santa Barbara area (e.g. Tercero, Liquid Farm). Love Tempier. Love Cotat Rose when I can get it. Have had a lot of swill too. And I do think it’s hard to get right…I’ve had Bruno Clair’s Marsannay Rose, and I didn’t do cartwheels (though I did like PYCM’s)

Mike - I’m not a wine maker and would of course defer to Larry and others regarding the question, but I think that part of it depends on what the purpose of the wine maker was. For example, when I was doing such things, I sold a big red wine. It came from a warm dry region and the grapes were small and thick skinned. The wine maker wanted to concentrate the wine even more, so he bled off some of the juice. The remaining juice then soaked up all of the color and flavor from 100% of the skins.

But what was the wine like? It was kind of like a lighter red and we sold a lot of it. The grapes had been harvested for a big red wine, so they were pretty ripe. The wine was fermented completely, so there wasn’t the residual sugar you get in a lot of rosé. But it wasn’t the crisp, light style that many people on this thread like.

Alternatively, we had another guy whose family had very old hilly vineyards and some of the parcels just didn’t give him the grapes he wanted. So he picked those for earlier than he picked for his reds and he made rosé. I knew some folks in Italy who did the same thing - they had Sangiovese that never really ripened perfectly because they were in a cold area subject to early frost, so they picked earlier than they would for a red and they made a pretty good, crisp rosato. If they pick while the grapes are still high in malic acid and not “completely” ripe enough to make big reds, they can come up with a really nice wine.

Once those picking decisions are made, then all the other questions come up - how much skin contact, temperature, etc.

And then, in some places, there’s white wine blended with the red to give it a bit more zip. That was the case with Rioja and all of those older rosados that people on this board rhapsodize about. Many places in Spain have allowed for blends of whites and reds, although Rioja has now decreed that the rosados must be all red grapes.

I think that one of the reasons there is so much bad rosé around is that people can sell it. That type of wine has always and will always be popular. At one time it was Mateus and Lancers, then those wine coolers from Gallo, then “white” zin, then crappy wine from Provence. A lot of places where it’s hot and sunny grow grapes that get really ripe. Pick them, remove the skins, and leave a little RS and you have your summer sipping wine.

So if I don’t know a rosé wine, I usually check where it came from or what it’s made from. And if it’s from something like Pinot Noir, Zweigelt, Nebbiolo, or Cab Franc, I’ll often give it a try.

32

Those are both very helpful posts, thanks guys. Larry, I like how you frame your answer in terms of transparency. FTR, my answer to your question is yes—great wine can be made and drunk that is meant to be drunk in the first 3-4 years–I do believe that can be the case (although I don’t love the stuff, Dolcetto comes to mind?). And Greg, I like how you frame the answer too–that there is so much lousy Rose because people can sell it.

33

How was the Lioco this year? Have some magnums on the way for a weekend at the beach with family.

34

Interestingly, Draper at Ridge actually made a zin rose (white zin) before Sutter Home, starting in 1970, and he brought it on Julia Child’s TV show. But he apparently gave it up when the category turning into sweet crap. I’ve seen pictures of a few bottles online.

35

It was good. Very bright acidity. Crisp fruit.

36

Who knows if it will decline in the near future. Is it a “cool” bubble, or has it just become acceptable to drink without scorn, or something else? Got me.

Anecdotally, I was stocking the beach house as my daughter was having friends for her 21st bday weekend, and I asked them what they wanted (not chugging my stuff!). Every last one of them said “rose”.

There was a short debate as to whether to get a red, but naaaa.

My daughter, bless her soul, asked if she could drink some of the Huet as a treat for her birthday.

37

not even close

@Gary–love the pics. We drink Rose year round.
(extended summer)

38

I don’t make Rose (or any other wine), but I taste and sell a lot of it (at my level, a ‘lot’ is defined as half a million bottles a year… or about what Whispering Angel sells in the U.S. every month).

I think it’s fiendishly hard to grow, but not to make. To make fine Rose, you need the right vines in the right place. You have to limit yields (you can forget everything else I write in this post if you get this point). You have to pick at the right time. You have to give the right number of hours and maybe minutes of skin contact. Then you press it, let it ferment and bottle it. End of story. It’s easy in terms of time and labor. The details of pressing and fermentation are as important as for any fine wine. But after that, no need to worry about elevage.

Dan Kravitz

39

+1

But I think the average wine drinker sees Rosé like they see, say, Sauvignon Blanc or Chardonnay, with no understanding that Rosé can be made from any number of grape varietals and in a wide range of styles - not just sweet strawberry bubble gum.

I started a thread on the WS forum to ask people for their favourite complex, serious Rosés. Got some good suggestions.

And last week we opened a couple at a monthly gathering. Both were polarizing. Chris V brought the LdH Tondonia Rosado which I loved but some found a bit to oxidized. I opened a Vini Rabasco Vino Rosato La Salita (a Cerasuolo) that goes through malolactic in bottle and was cloudy and had a bit of a cider profile. Some loved it, some not so much.

Based on the feedback in the WS thread, I picked up these:
Domaine La Suffrene Bandol Rosé
Domaine Tempier Bandol Rosé
PYCM Rosé de Pinot-Noir

I also have some 2016 Valentini Cerasuolo d’Abruzzo that I’ll open perhaps next year.

40

Haven’t had Mateus lately, but Lancers, made by JM Fonseca, has improved considerably in the past 10 years or so. I’ve met the head winemaker several times. The wine is not as insipid as it once was and actually refreshing when cold enough.