Yeah, this.
Buying way less, drinking less, and drinking them much earlier.
Amazing that prices keep going up, but the issues STILL persist…
We had 4 Raveneau’s last night, from 1997-2000 (the 2000 was oxy), but the other wines were so super fresh, everyone was at least 10 years out in their assessment.
Guess we are forgetting what WB USED to look like.
I have been more focused on selling . I sold all my Leflaives for example . Lot’s of Dauvissat’s . I am amazed how much you get for these wines . Now , I just follow a few domaines where my premox rate has been acceptable : Coche Dury , Raveneau , Henri Boillot ( border line ) . Or I buy whites for earlier drinking such as Fabien Coche . So I buy much less .
Regarding Coche Dury , I agree there is a change . The typical spicy Coche nose is gone and this is a real pitty . The wines are cleaner and more pure but less interesting.
But it is too early to say that there is a total style change or whether this was because of the vintage . ( Rafael also doubled prices in just a few years but I can understand that , why should the middle men make all the profit ).
There are new domaines in white Burgundy that make wines that imho are totally stunning , but because of the small quantities very difficult to get and remain of the radar .
For example : last week , I visited Domaine Lamy-Caillot in Chassagne . Their wines were the best Chassagne premier cru’s I ever tasted . The domaine is extramely small : 1,2 ha .
The owners are a couple of very dedicated people . They do have Caillerets and La Romanee . Their hope is to increase their holdings over time ( wife is part of the Lamy-Pillot family ).
This is the real fun of Burgundy , finding the new hidden gems .
Another one ? Domaine de Cerberons in Meursault . Lady wine maker , she has a Les Cras . Style is somewhere between d’Auvenay and Henri Boillot . No sophistication but amazing concentration .
In Burgundy , there is always a new generation coming up with stunning wines . Unfortunately , they are very quickly discovered and then the wines are no longer available or too expensive . So to get an allocation on time is critical . Because the prices ex-domaine are usually reasonable .
Only BBs, villages and 1ers from certain producers and all drunk within 5-10 years. Only producer I buy widely is pycm but I still drink within 10 years. Switched a big chunk to dry German Riesling.
It’s been over 5 years since I bought a white Burgundy. It was a painful breakup but she was just too unfaithful.
German riesling much cheaper…as well as Alsace indeed
Ref Burgundy, important is wines drinking well when young. For instance, drank a Fontaine Gagnard 2014 Batard and it was fabulous while we had a Dancer Chevalier Montrachet 2013 at Trompette last week which was very impressive but in need of many years, so forget it, I suppose…
Ref BB, this is if you want Burg as many, while very good, are hardly exciting… and you may find some more exciting wines from other regions (Loire)
I concur with Dan on having Villages and 1er crus and on PYCM. I also buy a very few bottles of Lafon (1 1er and 2 Vill), 1 Ente and 2 Coche Dury… a year at intermediate prices (less than secondary)
But I went mad on 2014s whites as they drink so well including Chablis (Dauvissat, Billaud simon), Meursault (Darviot Perrin, Buisson Charles, Fichet), Chassagne (B Moreau, DP) et St Aubin (Lamy, PYCM but also Corton Charlie…)
Others may get satisfaction from young white Burgs, but for me white Burgs that drink well when young misses the whole point of white Burgundy, which like red Burgundy or Bordeaux, is the development of a magical tertiary complexity. Without that, why bother?
My feelings exactly. Mature white Burgundy is magical. Young white Burgundy can be very good but IMO is overpriced for what you get. With the exception of an occasional pre-1995 bottle at auction and an occasional Bourgogne for drinking young I’m out of the market.
You mean Lamy-Caill**a**t, Herwig! I totally agree with you about the quality, it’s very exciting. I’m quite proud to have been (I believe) the first Anglophone reviewer to write about them. Fingers crossed they are able to get more appellations - Lamy-Pillot have some superb holdings.
Yes, Im actually buying more, but from only a few stellar producers such as Pierre-Yves Colin-Morey and his wifes label under Caroline Morey, plus Morey-Coffinet and Hubert Lamy. They are so good out of the gate and yes, I love mature white Burgundy and fortunately have many from past purchases to just hold on and enjoy them from time to time.
Thanks for all the thoughtful replies. So far my strategy (read “luck”) has worked ok. Aside from 2 badly oxsidised 2005 Jadot Corton Charlies and a premoxed 2007 Matrot Meursault Perrieres, I’ve been able to enjoy my purchases (touch wood). I do rely heavily on the oxisided-burgs wiki in making my buying decisions. I am particularly interested in people’s experience with Henri Boillot, a producer whose wines I like and can mostly afford. The wiki lists him as a Category II producer (Above-average Premox Incidence), but the notes on bottles for the 2008 vintage and beyond, where I focus, show many solid bottles with only a few oxidised.
I have limited my white burg buying for the past 5-6 yrs to Macon,St Veran, Pouilly Fuisse and the occasional Les Setilles from Olivier LeFlaive…Most of my whites come from Greece, Italy, California plus some odds and ends from Germany, Long Island and the Finger Lakes
A similar story here. Just as I was about to expand my interest in white burgs, the double whammy of premox and escalating prices hit. It absolutely stopped that interest in it’s tracks. I still remain amazed at the two going hand in hand, and remain convinced it left too many in the region ‘fat, dumb and happy’, rather than treating the problem as if it endangered their livelihood.
The advantage of the wines you name, is that whilst some can age for a good decade, they are often rewarding well before that. I’ve yet to experience any hint of premox. The options of drinking wines at twice or more of the price, which may be too primary, or holding longer in fear makes their more lauded neighbours a poor alternative for me.
I buy same amount of white Burg, but now I refuse to spend too much on it, so no more Leflaive, no more Chevalier/Batard/Montrachet.
I still age them as usual, around 5 years for village, 8-10 years for 1er cru, 10-15 for GC. I know that I will have some casualties, but it is so beautiful when it is at its peak that I have hard time drinking them early
I have stopped Leflaive. My go to domaines are Niellon, Dauvissat, Boillot, Buisson Charles, Bonneau du Martray and Bouchard P&F. I have yet to have an oxydized Boillot.
The worst for me was Leflaive, by far.
Yea, my experience with premox the past few years has pretty much stopped my purchases. I would say that 75% of my flawed bottles are premox white burgundy.
Someone else said it above but if it is not age-worthy why pay the premium?
it has curtailed a bunch of white burgundy purchasing for me. I have about 18-24 bottles of white burgundy in my cellar of 2800
I was a regular buyer but largely stopped buying any 1994 or later Cote D’Or whites after the 2004 vintage except an occasional bottle for young drinking and an occasional good deal on a Premier Cru (knowing it’s a crap shoot). In retrospect, the first premox wine I recall buying and drinking, because no one knew it was premox at the time, was 1996 Sauzet Batard. (My premoxed Ramonets were in the cellar for the “long haul” at the time.) I remember being so excited to buy and later try, and so disappointed to drink, my first bottle of Sauzet Batard (and sell the second).
I still have random bottles of 1996, 97, 99, and 02 PCs and GCs in the cellar, but those are running out. And I have a few 2004s (older son’s birth year) with no expectations — Coche village Meursault, Niellon and J-M Pillot Chassagne Premier Crus, Carillon P-M Perrieres, Bouchard CC.
I caved by buying some 2014 Rollin Pernands a couple months ago to cellar. I think a lot of us Burg lovers were tempted by the 2014 Côte de Beaune whites. I love them (and the recently tasted 2011s) but I won’t waste my money on cellaring them.
I still buy Chablis to cellar (though not Dauvissat after becoming disenchanted by premox in wines that were spectacular on release). I also buy Maconnais whites - Thevenet’s wines and occasionally Barraud.
Yes. I don’t buy any that need aging. Therefore, I buy very little.
Yes - the white burgundies I buy are consumed younger as it’s not worth the valuable cellar space for premoxed wines. It’s sad but reality these days…
Yeah, pretty much. Still buy a few bottles, but not many.
I am really closest to your comment here, Counsellor. And no more telling example than my last white burg. That was a 2012 Jadot Duc de Magenta Chassagne Morgeots Clos de la Chappelle. I decanted it for 1 hour. I exclaimed on tasting “this is why one drinks white wine”. And 3 days later, out of a recorked half, it had fanned out gorgeously and become everything I’d ever want in archetypal Chassagne.
And in this? Maybe, just maybe, a tacit admission and change by makers of these wines to make them at least closer to their top enjoyment level at a much earlier age than in the past.
Regardless, I am fairly committed now to treating pretty much all my higher-level white burg in this manner----decant, try some on night of opening, recork and drink majority 2 - 3 days later. I’ll experiment with this “technique” some more, but boy did it reap Joker’s wild dividends with this wine. A counter-example? A 2008 Bouchard Meursault Genevrieres, which was a rockstar for the first 5 or 6 bottles I had? The last one drunk about 3 weeks ago…already starting to tip over. Had lost much of the magic. YMMV, but that’s where I am right now. At this point, I can’t see needing to age any current-bought white burg more than 10 years, except maybe a Raveneau Grand Cru or Coche CC from 12 or before.
Slainte,
Mike