Has Premox Affected Your Appreciation Of Maturity?

[Rauno_E_NZ]

Chris - I believe most of the Bouchard range is under DIAM. I thought I had heard the same re Jadot, but have not bought or seen them in my market for ages.

[alan_weinberg]

Don Cornwell deserves mention in this thread. On two fronts, he has helped tremendously with the issue. He started the oxidized burg wiki and his yearly white Burg dinners are very comprehensive and published on this site, affording much valuable information. He also works behind the scene with conversations and recommendations to many Burgundy winemakers. He has been instrumental in education on many fronts including Diam and other closures. The rest of us gripe; Don actually does something and we owe him a great debt. Chapeau!

[Chris_Seiber]

Don Cornwell deserves mention in this thread. On two fronts, he has helped tremendously with the issue. He started the oxidized burg wiki and his yearly white Burg dinners are very comprehensive and published on this site, affording much valuable information. He also works behind the scene with conversations and recommendations to many Burgundy winemakers. He has been instrumental in education on many fronts including Diam and other closures. The rest of us gripe; Don actually does something and we owe him a great debt. Chapeau!

The man is a treasure to the wine community. Huge respect.

[Robert_Grenley]

And in my case I just buy lesser WB’s and drink them early…which is a real compromise…but I am considering going the DIAM route.

This is what I do, too.

The good news is that White Burgundies drink quite well in their youth these days. I realize they don’t develop the most haunting traits of very aged wines, but they’re otherwise still complex and tasty. It’s definitely not like the old days, when young White Burgs were searingly acidic in their youth.

I generally try to drink mine by about 5-6 years from the vintage date. You still get a few early premox bottles, but it’s mostly safe in that time range.

Robert, what are some producers making reasonably priced White Burgs with DIAM these days?

My understanding is Bouchard and Jadot and Fevre (for somewhat reasonable) and Leflaive (for completely unreasonable) at this point.
I would be interested in which others, if anyone knows.
I have not checked Don Cornwell’s site for a bit to see whether that up to date info is listed there…and I have to look up the latest website address since it changed, unless someone has it at hand.

[Robert_Grenley]

Found this info on Don Cornwell’s Oxidized Burgundy site, I think updated sometime in 2018:

"Domaine William Fevre began bottling a portion of its Chablis (the 1ers) with DIAM in 2007. Starting in 2009, all of the Fevre production except for the grand cru Chablis moved to Diam.

Beginning withe the 2009 vintage, additional producers begin using DIAM closures. Bouchard Pere et Fils (Bouchard and Fevre have common ownership) moved all of their whites to DIAM beginning with the 2009 vintage. Domaine Montille, Deux Montille, and Domaine de Chateau de Puligny Montrachet (all related brands), along with Javillier and Roger Belland have bottled all of their white wines under DIAM starting with the 2009 vintage.

F&L Pillot joined the DiAM parade with the 2010 vintage and Fevre began bottling all of their grand cru Chablis with DIAM corks.

Jadot, Domaine de Bellene (and Roche de Bellene) and Droin (in Chablis) began using DIAM for all of their white wines in the 2011 vintage.

Starting with the 2012 vintage, Olivier Leflaive and Jean-Marc Brocard in Chablis began bottling all of their whites under DIAM closures.

Starting with the 2013 vintage, Lafon, Prieur and Chanson began using DIAM for all of their whites (except, in Lafon’s case, the entry level Macon that is sold in Australia, which is bottled under screw cap). Lafon is using DIAM 30 (intended to be used for wines intended for 30 or more years of bottle age). Prieur is using DIAM 10 for the village and premier cru wines and DIAM 30 for the grand crus. Chanson began using the new DIAM 30 on all of Chanson’s top wines. Bouchard Pere also immediately started using the new DIAM 30 for all of its whites when they became availble.

Starting with the 2014 vintage, Domaine Leflaive is bottling all of their wines with the new DIAM 30 corks. Daniel Dampt is bottling 90% of their production under DIAM. According to Dampt, the remainder are being bottled either under screwcap or natural cork, depending on the importer’s preference.

Starting with the 2016 vintage, Marc Colin and Maison Harbour are bottling their whites under DIAM 30.

Starting with the 2017 vintage, Pernot is bottling its wines under DIAM.

Both Sauzet and Roulot use DIAM closures on their Bourgogne Blanc wines. Raveneau bottled the 2013 Chablis AOC under DIAM."

Great resource…thank you,Don!

[John_Morris]

I’m really not sure if this is the way this 15 year old wine should taste or not. And if it is, I’m pretty sure my preference would be 5 years younger.

Sounds like a classic case of premox.

[David_Bu3ker]

Found this info on Don Cornwell’s Oxidized Burgundy site, I think updated sometime in 2018:

"Domaine William Fevre began bottling a portion of its Chablis (the 1ers) with DIAM in 2007. Starting in 2009, all of the Fevre production except for the grand cru Chablis moved to Diam.

Beginning withe the 2009 vintage, additional producers begin using DIAM closures. Bouchard Pere et Fils (Bouchard and Fevre have common ownership) moved all of their whites to DIAM beginning with the 2009 vintage. Domaine Montille, Deux Montille, and Domaine de Chateau de Puligny Montrachet (all related brands), along with Javillier and Roger Belland have bottled all of their white wines under DIAM starting with the 2009 vintage.

F&L Pillot joined the DiAM parade with the 2010 vintage and Fevre began bottling all of their grand cru Chablis with DIAM corks.

Jadot, Domaine de Bellene (and Roche de Bellene) and Droin (in Chablis) began using DIAM for all of their white wines in the 2011 vintage.

Starting with the 2012 vintage, Olivier Leflaive and Jean-Marc Brocard in Chablis began bottling all of their whites under DIAM closures.

Starting with the 2013 vintage, Lafon, Prieur and Chanson began using DIAM for all of their whites (except, in Lafon’s case, the entry level Macon that is sold in Australia, which is bottled under screw cap). Lafon is using DIAM 30 (intended to be used for wines intended for 30 or more years of bottle age). Prieur is using DIAM 10 for the village and premier cru wines and DIAM 30 for the grand crus. Chanson began using the new DIAM 30 on all of Chanson’s top wines. Bouchard Pere also immediately started using the new DIAM 30 for all of its whites when they became availble.

Starting with the 2014 vintage, Domaine Leflaive is bottling all of their wines with the new DIAM 30 corks. Daniel Dampt is bottling 90% of their production under DIAM. According to Dampt, the remainder are being bottled either under screwcap or natural cork, depending on the importer’s preference.

Starting with the 2016 vintage, Marc Colin and Maison Harbour are bottling their whites under DIAM 30.

Starting with the 2017 vintage, Pernot is bottling its wines under DIAM.

Both Sauzet and Roulot use DIAM closures on their Bourgogne Blanc wines. Raveneau bottled the 2013 Chablis AOC under DIAM."

Great resource…thank you,Don!

And FWIW, I have had two bottles of 2010 Fevre Bougros over the last couple of months. Both were pristine.

[Mark_Golodetz]

I too gave up WB some years ago. Plenty of alternatives.

[Jayson_Cohen]

Appreciation has not changed though buying habits did. Price was also a factor.

I have also back-bought WB at auction for certain wines where I did not experience premox 15+ years after vintage. There are some buys out there for the patient.

Respectfully disagree with Mark that there are real alternatives to WB. There are certainly different and profound and complex white wines that age remarkably well; they are just not WB.

And I’m nearly certain I have a bunch of premoxed 2004 Fevres that I’ve been ignoring.

[Markus_S]

Sooo how can one tell just by looking at the bottle?

Some people claim they can tell by looking at the bottles. I do agree that you can see a relative difference by comparing the color against a strong light – I did this with some older white burgs I had a case of at one point, where you could hold two bottles of the same wine up and see that one was darker than the other, and indeed, that did turn out to be the premoxed one of the two.

But I couldn’t tell in absolute terms (e.g. looking at a single bottle to see if its premoxed). And even with relative differences, it doesn’t mean the lighter one isn’t premoxed, it might just be less dark than the other bottle.

Maybe with a lot of trial and error and experience, someone could actually get good at that? I don’t know.

I had presumed that Markus was asking how you could tell the the bottle had a diam cork.

Yes, you’re correct John. There are so many producers (and new ones all the time) that it is hard to keep up with what type of cork they use. I happen upon them by accident when opening them. There is no indication on the label or capsule that the cork is different, unlike the screw-caps or glass-locks. If DIAM is such a superior method of closure, you would think the company name would go somewhere on the bottle.

[Markus_S]

I’m really not sure if this is the way this 15 year old wine should taste or not. And if it is, I’m pretty sure my preference would be 5 years younger.

Sounds like a classic case of premox.

But isn’t 15 years pushing it for a white wine that isn’t labeled “riesling”? I sort of assume some whites I open over 10 years of age outside of certain categories will begin to slow down and fade a little, with some of that giving various degrees of oxidized notes.

[Jayson_Cohen]

I’m really not sure if this is the way this 15 year old wine should taste or not. And if it is, I’m pretty sure my preference would be 5 years younger.

Sounds like a classic case of premox.

But isn’t 15 years pushing it for a white wine that isn’t labeled “riesling”? I sort of assume some whites I open over 10 years of age outside of certain categories will begin to slow down and fade a little, with some of that giving various degrees of oxidized notes.

No.

[Markus_S]

Sounds like a classic case of premox.

But isn’t 15 years pushing it for a white wine that isn’t labeled “riesling”? I sort of assume some whites I open over 10 years of age outside of certain categories will begin to slow down and fade a little, with some of that giving various degrees of oxidized notes.

No.

Always willing to change my mind if you want to open some examples for me.

[Greg_K]

Appreciation has not changed though buying habits did. Price was also a factor.

I have also back-bought WB at auction for certain wines where I did not experience premox 15+ years after vintage. There are some buys out there for the patient.

Respectfully disagree with Mark that there are real alternatives to WB. There are certainly different and profound and complex white wines that age remarkably well; they are just not WB.

And I’m nearly certain I have a bunch of premoxed 2004 Fevres that I’ve been ignoring.

Same for me. I’m willing to backfill certain producers that did not experience significant premox issues and have been reasonably (though not entirely) successful.

[Greg_K]

I’m really not sure if this is the way this 15 year old wine should taste or not. And if it is, I’m pretty sure my preference would be 5 years younger.

Sounds like a classic case of premox.

But isn’t 15 years pushing it for a white wine that isn’t labeled “riesling”? I sort of assume some whites I open over 10 years of age outside of certain categories will begin to slow down and fade a little, with some of that giving various degrees of oxidized notes.

I suspect Jayson is also thinking of Chenin (which I’m much less partial to), but my response would be to try some late 80s Leflaive.

[Mike_Evans]

Sounds like a classic case of premox.

But isn’t 15 years pushing it for a white wine that isn’t labeled “riesling”? I sort of assume some whites I open over 10 years of age outside of certain categories will begin to slow down and fade a little, with some of that giving various degrees of oxidized notes.

No.

A well-aged white Burgundy should show some degree of oxidized notes, if by oxidized notes one means honeyed color and honey, nuttiness, caramel, butterscotch, and similar flavors and aromas. I find that many people who started drinking during the premox era tend to mistake any sign of oxidation as premox and not as a natural and desirable part of a wine’s evolution. A key difference is that with a well-aged wine, there is freshness and vibrancy along with the caramel or nuttiness.

[Markus_S]

Sounds like a classic case of premox.

But isn’t 15 years pushing it for a white wine that isn’t labeled “riesling”? I sort of assume some whites I open over 10 years of age outside of certain categories will begin to slow down and fade a little, with some of that giving various degrees of oxidized notes.

I suspect Jayson is also thinking of Chenin (which I’m much less partial to), but my response would be to try some late 80s Leflaive.

I Did have some late-80’s Lefaive (all 1ers) but drank them all by the mid-90s.

[Mel_Knox]

I am drinking my Cote de Beaune whites much earlier now. The prices have risen so much I am buying fewer.

[Stuart_BeauneHead_Niemtzow]

Having already committed to cellaring them, the premox phenonemon, if anything , has increased my appreciation of White Burgundy. Though I’ve had my share of premox (and not as much as I expected), it has helped me realize how great an aged (your criteria, but 15+ years) offers a great experience and wonderful payoff. The flawed bottles don’t affect that “appreciation”. They do piss me off, etc. But, I’m really glad to have a stock.

I am firmly convinced that the culprit is the cork: that they have been kilned irregularly and in many cases, way too much (too rigid) to hold a good seal at the bottle neck. Nothing more complicated. Which is why I find the diam issue of interest. But, in a way, that preserves them rather than allows them to age…a different process.

I stopped buying in 2007, at my wife’s urging and with no regrets (other than I’ve also lost much of my interest and, certainly haven’t kept current. Having a superb , aged WB (including Dauvissat Chablis)…only makes me realize how screwed most of us consumers have been. And, the cork industry seems to have avoided all roundups and left the artisanally structured WB industry holding the bag and blaming themselves.

[John_Morris]

I’m really not sure if this is the way this 15 year old wine should taste or not. And if it is, I’m pretty sure my preference would be 5 years younger.

Sounds like a classic case of premox.

But isn’t 15 years pushing it for a white wine that isn’t labeled “riesling”? I sort of assume some whites I open over 10 years of age outside of certain categories will begin to slow down and fade a little, with some of that giving various degrees of oxidized notes.

In addition to a lot of Riesling (including top dry ones), Vouvray and Condrieu often can age more than 15 years. And, once upon a time, Chablis and White Burgundy.