Grape Variety Names

WINE TALK
41

Tribidrag is fine with this wine geek. Crljenak Kastelanski on the other hand [wink.gif]

42

Since you edited out the answer your snark attempt falls flat.

43

As someone in the retail business, I consider it my job to explain the different names for the same grapes and introduce customers to the different styles inherent in the different regions.

Let the name games continue!

[cheers.gif]

44

I wasn’t trying to be snarky. Just flippant.

45

Well, as I said: “What’s on the front label should be up to the winemakers, as long as it isn’t misleading.”

For Zin the answer is easy. There’s such a long time of isolated evolution, the Primitivo brought over here shows different, as does the Tribidrag. The whole point of making those here is to express those distinctions, so it only makes sense to use those respective names. No one is hiding that those are clones of the same variety, they’re highlighting it. Similarly, I think it would be somewhat awkward/slimey/misleading to simply label versions from Croatia or Italy as Zin, but making note of that fact is both proper and good marketing. (And, back to my other point, I think it’s proper that WINE GRAPES lists the variety as Tribidrag.)

46

At some point in the future standardisation may be helpful, but I don’t think we know enough about the DNA of all these grapes yet to be able to propose a sensible definition of which ones are sufficiently identical to take the same name. Bear in mind that using today’s common genetic markers Pinots Noir, Gris and Blanc are clones of the same variety.

47

I wonder was happens (happened?) when a Styrian Welschriesling should be imported to the US?
Has it to be labelled as Graševina ?
[scratch.gif]

48

I’d like to point out that it just wouldn’t be awkward/slimey/misleading, but it IS. Meaning that there are Puglian and Croatian Zinfandels already out there. Furthermore, they usually are not made in the typical, lcoal style, but instead done in a modern, commercial style with often noticeable residual sugar and vanilla oak influence.

49

The TTB rules only apply to wines produced / labeled in the US. There are loads of wines imported to the US with labeled grape varieties that are not on the TTB list and don’t have to follow the same regulations as for US-produced wines.

50

Godello being one. We imported a lot of it.

Another thing to keep in mind as far as naming goes is that until recent advances in DNA testing, people had no idea what something was and usually didn’t care too much. They’d use ampelography perhaps, but they were far less concerned about varietal and clonal selection than people are today. So they’d find something that worked rather well, propagate it, and their grandchildren would do the same, and they’d have little idea that it was identical to something on the other side of the mountain range. They often believed it was a unique local grape.

Trying to ascertain the earliest use of a name seems nice but it would be a political disaster. If you find a record of a grape dating back to the 1500s and people agree that’s the oldest and proper name, then a few years later someone uncovers a note dating back to the 1000s, does everything change?

51

Thanks - that´s a relief …
[wow.gif]

52

Context. That’s referring to how each of 1368 grape varieties are listed in a reference book. Nothing more. It’s not strictly the earliest name since that often delves into the range of speculation. They are trying to defer as much as reasonable to the origin of a variety, so the most sensical contemporary name from where the grape comes from. How else should they have done it?

53

The only thing worse would be if German wine label rules applied to US wines. [snort.gif]

Incidently, the TTB does regulate foreign wine labels, though I guess not for grape types. I wrote a story 25 years ago about the idiocy of the label folks. The worst case was when they rejected some wine that came in labeled at 13,5%. They insisted that it be changed to 13.5%. Only after a lot of back and forth did they relent.

54

Glad you mentioned that, John - I’m not sure off the top of my head just what the TTB requires on import labels but they don’t seem to have any issue with grape varieties that are not on their own list.

55

Well, although I may know (I actually didn’t, re: Morillon) or you may know, the whole point of standardized names would be that then everybody would know. Being a wine geek, I really don’t mind the different names, and do enjoy the extra information that the different names can bring. Buuuuuut, if given the choice between different names and standardized names, I’d choose standardized because that simply makes more sense. same with wine bottle shapes — they should all be of the standard shouldered Bdx. type bottles, but that’s a different conversation …

56

In 2006, the US and the EU signed an agreement with regard to wine trade such that each would accept the production practices and label regulations of the other. So for imported wines offered for sale in the US, the TTB will allow a label if it is in conformance with the label regulations in the country of origin. That includes grape variety names and geographic place names. Here’s a link to the actual document in all its bureaucratic glory:

https://www.ttb.gov/agreements/us_ec_wine_agreement.shtml

57

Well if we are going to get into bureaucracy, then we can discuss the Harmonized Tariff Schedule codes for wine.

2204.21.8030=???

:wink:

58

My anecdote – told to me originally by an importer in San Francisco and then confirmed by an ATF spokesman – dates back to the early 90s.

59

I don’t feel the varietal names mean much more than a general sketch of possible flavors. The wine maker’s style and approach mean more. And region, old world/ new world etc. I am not a blind taster and cannot always tell between Rhône based and Bordeaux based wine. The flavor profiles can overlap. I quit worrying about it. I started drinking Mourvèdre with Dirty and Rowdy and no other version tastes like that. The taste of unoaked Chardonnay can wander in to the lane of some rich versions of Sauvignon Blanc. I have a pretty good handle on what French varietals go into what bottles by region but that is only intellectual. Haven’t even heard of most Italian grapes. Doesn’t stop me from ordering Italian. I used to focus on grape types until I started drinking Rhône based ones and realized that I have no clue what Syrah is. I know how some people approach it it their wine making and that is what I respond to.

Just saying for me, varietal names mean less than producer and style. It gives me a clue but that’s all.

60

you left out Schwarzriesling