We have to remember that reflecting terroir is not just a matter of grape variety but also other things. Does a producer obscure terroir differences by smothering the wine in new oak? Is the wine made from one grape type or multiple ones, like Bordeaux or Chateauneuf? Etc., etc., etc.
For me, the grape that most shows terroir is Pinot Noir. Find a single good producer like a Hudelot-Noellat or a Jouan and taste their villages wines from two different villages (say Chambolle vs. Vosne in the former case or Morey vs. Gevrey in the latter case). The wines taste different from each other. This is not a matter of theory or what one reads or anything else. Either you taste the differences or you do not. I also think Riesling and Chardonnay can very much reflect terroir. Same test. Take a producer and taste his wines from two different sites - how different do the two wines taste?
Cabernet is much harder since it generally is blended with other grapes and smothered with new oak. It would be interesting to taste wines that are 100% Cabernet that have seen a relatively smaller amount of new oak and whether terroir differences show through. Not sure I have ever had wines from this grape that meet these tests.
It isn’t just the amount of new oak. It is the type of new oak; the amount of toast of the barrels, etc.; the skill of the winemaker in using it, etc. There are certainly pinot based wines that do not do a good job of reflecting terroir and lots of Chardonnay based wines with the same issues.
Good luck getting two Pinot Noir vines next to each other to ripen at the same pace.
Well argued post but one that doesn’t seem to have real world experience in seeing grapes ripen on the vines.
One reason a lot of wines fail to transmit an appreciable terroir is because winemakers wait to harvest until every grape looks the same. By this point most of the fruit is past “normal ripeness”. Then they sort out anything that looks vaguely non-conformist. Ripeness, IMO, is not terroir but it is what modern winemaking/growing has gotten good at. In my opinion, lower alcohol wines are more likely to show terroir. But allowing the natural variation in ripeness in most small vineyards to come through is also an integral part of the process.
My favorite block at Whistling Ridge, producing what are arguably my favorite Goodfellow wines is a shitshow (pardon the language) for ripening at the same pace within the block. It’s literally impossible in most years for me to get even ripening throughout the block. Sampling is a waste of time, and I pick according to markers within the vineyard that tell me when the block is ready.
And we mostly sort it by dumping it directly in the fermenter. I have a fancy sorting line that we use if there’s diseased fruit. But otherwise we just go directly to fermenter, because the humans always want to make it better, and on a sorting line that translates to tossing anything that doesn’t look the way we think it should.
But the block produces amazing wines. I pick early by most standards, and sort less than anyone I know. I feel lucky to have this fruit, because it’s taught me more than anything else in 20 years of doing this.
I am well aware of this and often the difference in how the grapes ripen is one of the key aspects in terroir differences.
My point in having two whole vineyards ripen at the exactly same time was supposed to be a hypothetical scenario, not one meant to be taken literally and ponder whether it is possible or not. The point of this hypothetical was to show how some grape varieties can show obvious differences from the terroir that are not related to just the degree of ripeness. Even if two vineyards could produce grapes in which the physiological and sugar ripeness is virtually at the same level, the resulting wines could be still very different due to having different pH / acidity / tannins / anthocyanins / aroma precursors / whatnot, all because of the soil material, soil pH, shade from sunlight, protection from the wind, etc.
I know these are purely hypothetical scenarios, but my point was not to make 1:1 real-world examples, but instead explain what the capability to transmit differences in the terroir in the wine actually means. Otherwise people could (/would) just say “well, it’s just because of the ripeness”. For example if you planted two vineyards with, say, Welschriesling or Trebbiano Toscano, you probably would get two quite identical wines when they were harvested at the same time at the same degree of ripeness. However, if you planted two vineyards with Chardonnay or Riesling instead, you might actually get two rather different wines even when the grapes were picked at the same time at the same degree of ripeness.
This is an interesting thought, and something I have wondered about myself. Perhaps small terroir variations make a much bigger difference in marginal climates as opposed to warm regions where grapes can easily reach physiological ripeness and pump out plenty of sugar to obscure subtle terroir differences. I have no idea if this is true, but it makes intuitive sense. A possible test is to see if there is more detectable terroir variation between adjacent sites in cool years than warm years. An intriguing idea nonetheless.
From what I’ve read, that is pretty much the case - although I wouldn’t say it’s at the fringes, because there the differences in temperature and weather become so important that any other differences in terroir tend to get lost. When the region is cool yet temperate enough for the grapes to ripen quite reliably; that’s where the sweet spot is. There the terroir variation tends to show the biggest differences in wines. The hotter it is, the more uniform (anonymous) the wines become, since grapes require a set period of time to produce aroma precursors, and this depends mainly on the variety and clone, it does not change according to the temperature, weather or climate. On the other hand, sugar ripeness depends heavily on the temperature, as sugars accumulate the faster the hotter it is.
In regions that are getting too hot for viticulture the grapes can accumulate remarkable amount of sugar by August (in northern hemisphere) and once the acidity starts to drop, the grower needs to harvest. However, certain varieties might need to hang until late September to mid-October before they have developed their varietal characteristics fully. In hotter regions these grapes would’ve desiccated completely by this time.
I’ve once tasted a Jordanian wine (a weird Cabernet Sauvignon - Pinot Noir blend) that was made from grapes harvested in late July to early August. It was tough as nails with a ridiculous wall of tannins and no discernible fruit flavors. There was a vague, jammy cassis note and quite a bit of oak, but overall the wine felt very hollow. A textbook example of a wine made from fruit that is grown outside its ideal climate. Just because Cabernet Sauvignon and Pinot Noir vines can produce fruit in Jordan doesn’t mean these vines are capable of producing fruit suitable for making wine. There might be even quite large terroir variations between the vineyards, but since it’s just way too hot for viticulture, all differences in terroir get obliterated.
Just wanted to say that I loved these lines, Marcus.
If terroir is the expression of a given site, then that means taking what the place gives you and doing your best with it. I appreciate the sentiments and the clear affection you have for the place.
Will have to strongly but respectfully disagree here Otto. I was having this discussion with my wife a few weeks ago about Syrah and the conclusion was that it’s hard for me to think of another grape that’s more of a chameleon than Syrah. There are far absolutely greater distinctions than merely “cool and hot climate” Syrah. Part of this is due to the fact that Syrah can arguably grow successfully in so many climates and it’s compelling range of characteristics between these places. You can run the gamut on fruit profile from red currant and strawberry to cassis and boysenberry - while at the same time retaining some element of complexity from dried roses, asphalt, olive tapenade, smoke, grilled meat, laurel, pepper spice, violets, soy and obviously more. (Although in my mind, cool climate Syrah is the most compelling, but the differences between Cote Rotie, Hermitage and Sonoma Coast are very different!).
A couple months ago I had a wonderful bottle of 2013 Barruol-Lynch Cote Rotie that was a near dead-ringer for Burgundy - only a couple markers could have pointed to Cote Rotie. Blinded, I’m positive I could have been convinced that it was Pinot Noir - and I’m certain that would be true for many tasters here too. It was transparent in character, utterly complex with a rather delicate but firm structure (no doubt due to the vintage). Even more, I’ve had a couple Crozes-Hermitage, full of red cherry and strawberry fruit, alongside asphalt and roses that invoked the personality of Nebbiolo - and while they couldn’t have been confused for one another due to their underlying structure/tannin differences, any similarity at all is quite remarkable.
And while I don’t enjoy the style, I’ve found there are so many overlapping characteristics between certain modern Napa Cabernets and new world Syrah as well. The profile of cassis, blueberry and violets in some of these gently extracted Cabernets (long cold soaks, all free run juice) seem almost identical to other well made California Syrah. The mid-palate structure of these are usually a tell - but when combined with some element of new oak tannin, it’s not quite as clear.
So all that to say, is that while I don’t want to totally venture into the minefield of what grape varieties reign supreme in the world of terroir - I can affirmatively say that Syrah cannot be dismissed as a variety that really shows in a transparent way where and how it was grown. Whether that can be expressed on the very finest level between plots and rows of vineyard, I can’t say, but throughout every AOC in France, Syrah is remarkably different, and from my experience in California that holds true too between Sonoma Coast, Paso Robles, SLH, Napa and SLO/SBC as well.
Interesting thread. To me, the best way to test this would have the same grape hailing from different terroirs with as little variables changed as possible. Like the Merkelbach example above, I believe that would need to then be the same wine maker using a consistent way of producing wines across the plots. I had a tasting with Istvan Szepsy of his different single vineyard dry furmints a few years back at his winery. The terroir around Tokaj is very heterogenous and he showed a nice sample of “typical” stones found in the different vineyards. I can’t really tell one rock from another, but they were vastly different. This was expressed clearly in the wines as well, which had some obvious similarities (same grape and wine maker), but stark differences as well. .
Another great example would be Clemens Busch Marienburg, which is right in front of his house. He has blue, red and grey slate there and the differences in the wines made from the different soils are quite pronounced. Amazing vineyard really and should deserve some more attention.
I guess though that even in these examples with the same wine maker and still wine making techniques though, there will still be other variables beyond terroir that impact the final product. Moment of harvesting probably the most significant.
I believe I have never said anything that would contradict your points. I’ve never said Syrah wouldn’t be a great variety for expressing terroir, because it certainly is - this is pretty obvious even when tasting different from different appellations in such a small spot as Northern Rhône! One doesn’t need to taste Côte-Rôtie vs. Aussie Shiraz to see the difference. Thus, I’m not saying there is only one “cool climate Syrah” style and one “hot climate Syrah” style, they’re just handy hyponyms for general stylistic tendencies.
And my point in that “Syrah tastes like Syrah wherever it is grown” is how cooler-climate Syrah tends to taste like cooler-climate Syrah and hot-climate Syrah tastes like hot-climate Syrah. I’ve never claimed that cool-climate Syrah tastes anything like hot-climate Syrah, but if one is familiar with a cool-climate Syrah and a hot-climate Syrah, it’s pretty easy to tell when a wine is a Syrah, no matter the style. While there might be some exceptions as those you mentioned, for the most part one does not confuse a Saint-Joseph with a Chambolle-Musigny or a Barossa Shiraz with a Ribera del Duero. Syrah can and does change quite a bit more when taken from a cool climate to hot climate, but if one is familiar with the variety, it doesn’t change into a completely different wine any more than a cool-climate Pinot Noir or Cabernet Franc when taken to hot climate.
