Grange - When does the drinking window start?

[Bill_Tex_Landreth]

@Mike During

@Loren Sonkin

@Mike During

Am I alone in that I can’t take Grange seriously? The sole reason being that it is not a terroir based wine, which to me is all important, and Grange simply doesn’t have it.

I respect your right to that view, but I don’t understand it. Terroir can be fascinating, but you won’t even consider grange to be a serious wine because it blends wine from many parts? What about Chave? His wines come from multiple vineyards albeit a much smaller range than Grange but still hard to call that terroir?

As I said, I resect your view, but not a “serious” wine? To answer your question then, yes, i suspect you may be (close to) alone on that.

As you say Chave is tiny compared to Penfolds, closer to a village 1er in this respect, and it is easy to picture the vineyards and personalities involved, still I would prefer if it were not a blend.

Grange is more a product of commerce today, romanticising Max Shubert’s story of great vision and winemaking from the 50’s, as if nothing has moved forward since. If Max was around today he could well be battling Penfolds, to make Grange a terroir driven wine, something we realise is important to great wine.

Have you personally tasted Grange?

[Mike_During]

@Bill Tex Landreth

Have you personally tasted Grange?

Of course, several forgettable times, can’t get away from it.

[Kent_Comley]

I have a slightly contrarian view to Mike.
Firstly the wine tastes great and has a proven track record for ageing…surely ticks the first two pre-requisites for Great wine.
Secondly, the bulk of the blend generally comes from the sandy Kalimna vineyard in the Barossa, so in most vintages it is the wine has a strong Barossa signature.
Furthermore, some of Australia’s greatest wines eg Penfolds Bin 60A were multiregional blends.
It’s a different model to winemaking, but if the product is great, then I don’t see the problem.
Afterall Mike, our favourite region (Burgundy) used to cross blend with wine from Algeria and the Rhone!!!

[Mike_During]

Kent,
“used to” is my point. I am disappointed, you a kiwi liking Grange

[Kent_Comley]

Mike,
To be honest whilst I admire Grange, I prefer to drink St Henri (and Le Sol!!)…lucky for my pocket!!
Cheers,
Kent

[Mike_During]

@Kent Comley

Mike,
To be honest whilst I admire Grange, I prefer to drink St Henri (and Le Sol!!)…lucky for my pocket!!
Cheers,
Kent

Burgundy aside, now you are more on track. Cheers, Mike

[Bruce_Leiser_owitz]

Although I don’t disagree with estimates of 15-20 years, I think it’s largely an issue of the trade-off between young/ripe fruit and more complexity/more savory qualities. The 98 Grange was actually rather spectacular (in a showy/youthful way) on release, but seems to be a bit shut down at the moment. Ultimately, I think it will enter its more mature phase at the 20-year mark.

Bruce

[Graeme_Gee]

I think the great vintages start ‘drinking’ much earlier than the average ones. Which makes it tempting to open them because trhey are so much more palateable. But they will still reach greater heights than the rest.

And on Mike’s terroir point, I guess Schubert (and the team since) are pretty well selecting the grapes on a rather ‘terroir-like’ basis. If Grange was just made from the Kalimna vineyard exclusively, it wouldn’t taste any different, there’d just be less of it. Carefully selecting the grapes just maintains the quantity and is some smaller guarantee against the vagaries of vintage.
I accept that ‘style’ isn’t a synonym for ‘terroir’, but Grange is a particularly distinctive and unique wine. It has to be down to the fruit, as there’s nothing especially significant about the techniques they use.
cheers,
G

[J_a_y_H_a_c_k]

@Chris Kravitz

I would never occur to me to ask for you to send me one for evaluation purposes, what I will do for you is allow you to open them at a Grange only offline to be held in Westchester (could be NYC) and will contribute an 83 which will reduce the size of my Australian wine collection by 50%.

Then and only then will you be able to comprehend what Grange is all about…not that I really have a clue

This sounds like a reasonable plan. Powerful Aussie Shiraz in Westchester needs a steakhouse, and I have a relationship with Morton’s so we could do it there. I already have two liver-busters in March, and April is busy, but perhaps we can do May.

[J_a_y_H_a_c_k]

@Mike During

. . . it is not a terroir based wine, which to me is all important, and Grange simply doesn’t have it.

Sorry, but I think flavor is more important than terroir integrity.

[Mike_During]

@J a y H a c k

@Mike During

. . . it is not a terroir based wine, which to me is all important, and Grange simply doesn’t have it.

Sorry, but I think flavor is more important than terroir integrity.

Understood, but it is thus open to look-alikes which diminish the wine, in effect you are buying the label.

[Alan_C_h_a_n]

I’d love to know what the look-alikes are (honest and sincere question from someone who can’t afford Grange).

[Mike_During]

@Alan C h a n

I’d love to know what the look-alikes are (honest and sincere question from someone who can’t afford Grange).

Have you tasted Yellow Tail.

[Mike_During]

@Alan C h a n

I’d love to know what the look-alikes are (honest and sincere question from someone who can’t afford Grange).

Seriously, not being a fan I have not looked out for them but others may be able to help.

[brodie_thomson]

@Mike During

Kent,
“used to” is my point. I am disappointed, you a kiwi liking Grange

Mike - I like Grange too, so leave Kent alone.

I also agree with Kent on Grange. I like a wide range of wine styles including Penfolds wines.

Knowing your palate and preferences, you position does not surprise me at all. I must remember not to offer you older Granges in the future. Of course burgs, baroli are different matters!

Keep up the battle for terroir, even if it gets lonely in this thread…

Brodie

[Mike_During]

Brodie,
I am beyond saving… Alan’s question was a good one, what would you think compares to Grange?

[brodie_thomson]

@Mike During

Brodie,
I am beyond saving… Alan’s question was a good one, what would you think compares to Grange?

Mike - I promise I will not try to “save” you.

I would defer to the Aussies on the look alike as my Aussie data points are about 10 yrs out of date. The Jim Barry Armagh was supposedly made in a Grange like style but I have never had it.

cheers Brodie

[Kent_Comley]

I can’t think of many multi-regional blends of the ilk of Grange as most of the ultra premium producers are small and regionally focussed.
One that comes to mind is Wolf Blass Black Label which shares a similar ethos, although was trumped by the Platinum label a number of years ago.
The Penfolds limited Bin Range eg 60A and 80A were blends of Shiraz & Cab Sauv.

[Rick_Dyer]

I have had several vintages of Grange - including a 1977 consumed in 2008, a 1982 consumed in ?, a 1989 consumed in 2010, a 1993 consumed in 2009 (and it was WAY too early) . The single best bottle of wine I have every had was an '81 Grange (which was not suppose to be a great vintage) which I drank in 2000 - so about 19 years of age from the vintage date. I think my sense is that Grange needs at least 15 years – and more for great vintages.

Any discussion about “terroir” seems to me to be inappropriate for this wine. To me “terroir” seems to imply subtlety and nuance – neither of which apply to Grange. I have found Grange to be all about power - massive fruit, big structure and lots of layers of flavors and textures.

PS For some reason this did not post when I wrote it - may be out of sequence, but submitting anyway.

[Lewis_Dawson]

@Mike During

@Loren Sonkin

@Mike During

Am I alone in that I can’t take Grange seriously? The sole reason being that it is not a terroir based wine, which to me is all important, and Grange simply doesn’t have it.

I respect your right to that view, but I don’t understand it. Terroir can be fascinating, but you won’t even consider grange to be a serious wine because it blends wine from many parts? What about Chave? His wines come from multiple vineyards albeit a much smaller range than Grange but still hard to call that terroir?

As I said, I resect your view, but not a “serious” wine? To answer your question then, yes, i suspect you may be (close to) alone on that.

As you say Chave is tiny compared to Penfolds, closer to a village 1er in this respect, and it is easy to picture the vineyards and personalities involved, still I would prefer if it were not a blend.

Grange is more a product of commerce today, romanticising Max Shubert’s story of great vision and winemaking from the 50’s, as if nothing has moved forward since. If Max was around today he could well be battling Penfolds, to make Grange a terroir driven wine, something we realise is important to great wine.

Good on Mike for fighting the good fight. I agree with him that site-derived nuance is really important (to me), and Grange doesn’t have it, though it is good wine. Countless times I have seen the Chave example cited in discussions such as this, but Loren fails to mention that the entire Hermitage appellation covers about 140 ha tightly packed on one hillside. So Chave it is a poor example of a non-terroir blended wine IMO.

BTW, last month the 1990 Grange was youthful but ready to drink IMO. It was served double blind in a line-up of eleven wines from six countries. I nailed it, guessing 1990 Grange, but was the only one to guess the wine was from Australia. Just lucky.