Yup, it is the land that is designated Grand Cru or Premier Cru , the aspect of the land, the soil makeup and drainage of the site, the elevation, the breezes that are funneled into the site and everything else that is encompassed by the term terrior.
Yes there are plenty of examples of poor Grand Cru wines and stellar Village wines etc,
The designation given to the land is a guide to the potential of the land to produce great wine.
And yes some land was included in Grand Cru vineyards that really should only have been Premier Cru, but that is another story
What vineyards are typically believed to be the finest premier cru sites?
Conversely, what grand crus aren’t deserving of grand cru status?
Legally, a Grand Cru in Burgundy is a wine harvested from a classified limited terroir with the potential to produce superior quality (to a Premier cru). Yields are strictly limited, as are a lot of other details in wine-making.
For me a real Grand Cru should have the following qualities:
- a distinctive (unique) character
- great finesse, complexity and depth
- a superior intensity and length (to a 1er cru)
- all presented with fine balance
- superior ageworthy
I know that´s not always the case with wines designated Grand Cru …
Amoureuses, Clos St Jacques, Gaudichots (and by extension the part of Malconsorts that sits in the little bite out of La Tache).
As far as Grand Cru that isnt deserving, parts of Echezeaux and some of the Clos Vougeot are lucky to have been included in the designation.
I’d love to get that quote framed.
A bunch of the hyphenated Chambertins can easily be demoted to make room for CSJ.
These all are the usual suspects … and I would add definitely Cros Parantoux …
On the other hand Les Gaudichots is a mixed bag, Forey and Machard de Gramont rarely producing anything exciting …
but Cathiard usually does from his Malconsorts-site …
I also think that Clos St.Jacques (as a vineyard) is a bit overestimated … sure Rousseau (in love with it) makes the best possible from it, but with an effort usually reserved for Grands Crus only (yields, oak etc.) … and also Fourrier is really fine, but it´s e.g. a big step upwards from Bruno Clair´s CSJ to his Clos de Beze …
Or: Is Rousseau´s CSJ better than Liger-Belair´s Aux Reignots?
However - the discussion is still slipping into the wrong direction. Roberts question was: which qualities are necessary for a Grand Cru? Or: why should CSJ/Amoureuses … be elevated to GC?
I tried to give an answer above …
What I wonder is how much of the GC/PC/Village quality difference is really about the site and how much is about the investment into the grapes and winemaking. The higher the site classification the more you have to pay for the grapes and the higher a price you can sell them for. It therefore makes good economic sense to invest more in making the higher classifications. But are there still lesser known lower-ranking, even villages-type, locations in Burgundy where the right producer could develop make great wines? E.g. think of the Rousseau village Gevrey-Chambertin, haven’t had it and don’t know how much is just about the producer name, but it seems to be respected on line with a good premier cru. You would think that after all these centuries all the quality to be milked out of Burgundy locations would be known, but it seems like the combination of climate change + a revolution in winemaking resources and knowledge just since the '80s means that there may still be possibilities.
I think we’ve discussed it before, but the classification system has a tendency to become a self-fulfilling prophesy. Grands Crus, in short, are the sites that ripen grapes most completely most reliably; they’re the most resilient in extreme heat, in rainy years, in cool years. Winemakers often say that the musts from grands crus tend to be the most balanced and the easiest to vinfiy. This has to do with exposition, mesoclimate, geology / soil chemistry and hydrology. It follows that grands crus could reliably ripen the largest yields. Yet permitted yields are most restricted in the grands crus and more liberal in the more marginal sites. In turn, lower appellation sites are more likely to be planted with poor quality, higher yielding vine genetics; and they sell for a lower price, so producers are incentivized to pursue quantity. Grands crus will always be prioritized when making harvesting decisions, and will receive the most attentive and serious winemaking, including the best cooperage. All this reinforces a vicious cycle. Whole communes such as Marsannay and Santenay are victims of this vicious cycle, to say nothing of the Côte Chalonnaise. Which explains why communal appellation bottlings from great producers can transcend mediocre producers’ grands crus: while a great site gives you a great advantage, there’s a lot a diligent grower can make communal appellations more competitive with the grands crus.
Who was it who said this?
(I’ve said it numerous times here, but I’m certainly not one of the board’s most experienced enthusiasts. For me it’s partly price/quality, but almost more that I’m far more likely to open a PC to go with ordinary life than a GC. For me GC’s are for special occasions, for drinking with like minded wine enthusiasts, or close family with well thought out meals, whcih don’t happen so often. If I’ve over-bought GC’s, I find myself stuck in the cellar staring at a bunch of bottles that I don’t really want to open to go with the take-out food that I picked up on the way home from work.)
For me, on average, the difference between PC and GC is a set of vague concepts like palate length and exquisite balance. The concept of “robe” and “spherical” apply. the terms are too vague, but you sort of know it when you see it.
Also, another clearly differentiating point is that GC’s are much more likely than PC’s to perform well in off years.
I seem to remember Alan Weinberg saying it.
Burgundy is about terroir!
Usually you cannot make a highly complex “GC” from “simple” Village terroir!
With huge care, effort and with apropriate conditions (e.g. very low yields …old vines … good luck) you might be able to produce a wine on the level of a (lesser) Premier cru from a very good Village site … and a few Premier Crus are capable of producing wines of real GC quality in the right hands - I don´t want to repeat these few Crus (see above) …
I can only remember one wine when tasting I thought it to be a Grand Cru … and it actually was a Village
(and this was by Henri Jayer …)
To me, Burgundy is about producer more than it is about terroir. People who buy Burgundy based on terroir without looking at producer tend to be very disappointed with the wines they have purchased. People who buy even Bourgogne Rouge from excellent producers tend to enjoy the wines they have purchased.
I do think, however, that the market has elevated a relatively small number of producers well above what is reasonable based on price quality differences and that, in today’s world, there are quite a number of excellent producers worthy of attention.
I didn´t say “ignore the producer”! Did I?
You may enjoy a Bourgogne rouge immensly … but it still is no Grand Cru.
for me it’s about terroir in the hands of a great producer. Bourgogne may be excellent but it doesn’t thrill.
You specifically said that Burgundy is about terroir. Pretty much the same thing as ignore the producer and about the worst possible advice to give to someone learning about Burgundy.
Depending what year the Jayer was it could have had a large percentage of Cros Parantoux in it.
You have a strong tendency to ignore what people here actually write, reading your own imaginations into it … and then state something quite offensive …
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(ask whatever producer you like in Burgundy, everyone will tell you about terroir …)
Pretty typical. You make silly over the top statements and then instead of discussing the topic objectively, you resort to personal attacks. Very mature.
A question I have always pondered as well, and which William answered nicely. Although, I’m a believer that there is definitely a lot of wiggle room in the boundaries of what constitutes GC and PC vineyards. And that there are a fair number of “lesser” areas now able to command prices high enough to justify treating them as well as higher priced vineyards. St. Aubin is one of those, where I think some outstanding wines are being made by the top producers in the better vineyards.