Gilman Says '85 Margaux is "Lifeless" and Gives it 70

Hi Folks,

I would be happy to send anyone who is not a subscriber a copy of the '85 claret article, so that they can read my comments about the vintage and the '85 Margaux in particular, rather than speculating. Just email me and I will send a copy, then everyone can hypothesize based on what I said, rather than what I might have been thinking, drinking or hoping to accomplish with the article. In any case, in the article I also discuss the rather middling bottles of 1983, 1989 and 1990 Margaux that I have had in the last year or two (forgetting to mention another indifferent bottle of the 1986 Margaux that was served double blind alongside of the 1986 Rauzan-Segla and crushed by the R-S). So, either I have had a bit of consistent bad luck with Margaux from the 1980s over this time frame, my palate is slipping, or the Margaux vintages of the 1980s are not aging quite up to the standards of the property’s historical legacy and the hype that has surrounded these vintages from the property. If the poor showing of the 1985 Margaux and 1985 Pavillon Rouge had been isolated examples, I might have certainly entertained the possibility that these were just bad bottles, but as I have had other disappointing vintages of Margaux in recent times, it put the poor showing of those two 1985s in a different context.

First about the bottle of '85 Margaux. It came from a friend’s 55 degree cellar, as did several other of the 1985s that I reported upon in the article, with the other wines showing pristinely. The bottle was originally sold by me to him in my merchant days, back in the early 1990s, from a cellar of 400 cases of claret I bought from a restaurant with a massive cellar and excellent storage. The restaurant bought huge quantities of claret upon release in the decades of the 1970s and 1980s and were famous in the day for their provenance and selection. The quality of the examples of claret that I tasted and cellared from that particular purchase have always been impeccable (and I continue to have plenty of wines in my cellar to this day that are in flawless condition from that particular collection). The vintages that I purchased from this collection of claret spanned from 1975 to 1986, and everything was always in top condition. I drank several bottles of '85 Margaux out of this same cellar in the first half of the 1990s and they always were spot on and excellent (which I comment on in the article, as '85 Margaux was indeed an absolutely beautiful wine in its youth and I drank most of my own 1985s on the early side- again this is covered in the feature). After checking with my friend who brought the bottle to our tasting already double-decanted, he confirmed that the fill level was excellent (nearly still to the cork), the capsule turned, the embossing on the top was still raised, there was no signs of seepage anywhere and the cork, when he arrived looked to be excellent in quality. He also commented that the wine smelled promising when he decanted it and pouirted it back in the bottle, probably about half an hour before we convened for the tasting at a mutual friend’s apartment. All other bottles at this particularl '85 tasting were treated similarly to the Margaux, with the exception of the gentleman whose apartment we were tasting at, as his wines obviously did not have to travel. The bottle of '85 Margaux was emphatically not corked or cooked.

As I wrote in the article, I had loved the '85 Margaux in its youth, which is why my six bottles were long consumed by the time I started working on this article on the vintage, and I was not expecting the wine to show as it did at our tasting. It is of course perfectly conceivable that the bottle was still “off” in some manner, despite not being corked or cooked. However, the wine showed virtually identical to the '85 Pavillon Rouge, which came from someone else’s cellar and had a completely different provenance, with the same flaccid, faded glossiness of fruit, lack of structure, complexity and focus and short, flat finishes. Lifeless is how both wines showed at our tasting two weeks ago, and we had sixteen 1985s that particular evening and there were an awful lot of vinous fireworks on display from other wines in the lineup. Wines were served single blind, as we had put together flights of two wines ahead of time, with an eye on pairing up similarly styled wines for each flight, but then each attendee took turns going into the other room and choosing which flight would be served, so that only one person per flight knew which two wines they were tasting. Once the pair had been selected, they were decanted and served immediatly. Consequently, I tasted the '85 Margaux under blind conditions, as I did not select this flight to be served.

As I mentioned above, it is certainly possible that this bottle of '85 Margaux was in some way “off”, despite its impeccable appearance and the history of its provenance that we could track all the way back to its release, with only three transit stops along the way from 1987 to this past October. As I reiterate, it was most emphatically not corked or cooked, whatever else it might have been. However, it was my opinion that viewed within the context of other bottles of Margaux that I have had recently from the 1980s, as well as the near identical, tired and fading showing of the Pavillon Rouge '85 (from a completely different source), that this bottle of 1985 Margaux was indeed representative of the wine at its current stage of evolution. It was not particularly different in evolution from a couple of poor bottles of the 1990 Margaux I also tasted fairly recently.

While it would have been extremely nice to crack a case of the '85 Margaux to see if there was a consistency of disappointment with this wine, it was not a possibility for this article. Nor do I see that it was necessary, when one considers the context in which this wine was tasted. The wine was tasted blind, a great many of the wines at this particular tasting showed beauitfully (including a couple of others from the same cellar as the '85 Margaux), the Pavillon Rouge was in a virtually identical point of decrepitude to the Grand Vin, the bottle in question was not one of those auction bottles that had its passport stamped dozens of times as it scampered around the market from investor to investor (as we knew its history intimately), and this was not the first vintage of 1980s era Margaux that has disappointed in recent times. While the possibility still exists that the bottle in question was somehow “off”, the probability was that it was quite representative of the wine today.

We have to remember that tasting wines is always based on our own particular history, contextual setting and experience, in addition to the provenance of the bottle. This is every bit as true for a wine that shows brilliantly as one that disappoints. If I had scored the Margaux 95 points, who would be saying that this cannot be the wine and that it should not be judged based on a single bottle? It is the disconnect between the wine’s showing and the historical expectations of the vintage’s reputation, Margaux’s reputation, how the wine showed in its youth, and its scores elsewhere, that grates. I tasted nearly fifty examples of the vintage to prepare this report, with the high incidence of corked bottles reducing tasting notes on individual wines down to forty-one. Amongst the wines that I tasted that showed extremely well, and which one would expect '85 Margaux to be grouped with qualitatively, included Lafite, Mouton, Haut-Brion, La Mission, Lafleur, Ausone and Cheval Blanc. None of this group showed dulled fruit, compromised structure and focus, lack of complexity or short on the finish. If there had been less homogoneity of excellence amongst this group, then one might consider the Margaux a bit less disappointing, but the fact was that in a grouping in which the Margaux should have been right up with the top wines, it was instead, one of the poorest wines of the particular tasting. For the record, this tasting included the Haut-Brion and La Mission, but not the others of this top tier, though the evening in question also included outstanding showings of La Tour Haut-Brion, Haut-Billy, Pape Clement, l’Arrosee, l’Evangile and Certan de May, so there were certainly sufficient fine bottles to make a comparison with the Margaux.

While others notes above indicate that they have been very happy with their recently tasted bottles of 1985 Margaux, unless I did not read carefully, no one submitted that they had tasted a bottle recently blind. Not that it matters that much, but there is a certain enjoyment to be found in knowing that one is drinking a First Growth (at least for me), and of course, it is human nature to have one’s expectations shaped by the historical buzz behind a particular famous wine, such as 1985 Margaux, much as one can feel the anticipation if one is lucky enough to have one of the top 1961s on their immediate vinous horizon. Such wines come with a certain historical gravitas, based on reputation of property and vintage, and this all the more magnified for the First Growths, which can look far back into the past to a track record of great wines. I am not saying that others, who have liked their bottles of '85 Margaux were simply drinking their expectations, I am simply saying that there is a certain inertia behind top vintages of First Growths that can add to the pleasure found in the glass. If I had been drinking the '85 Margaux at home, on its own, with its label front and center, I might have enjoyed it more than I did (though not up to the expectations I would have had based on all the previous bottles of this wine I drank in its younger salad days). But, the wine was served blind and it was what it was. Maybe there are better bottles out there- I do not know- but, if there are superior examples and they cross my path in the future, I would certainly not hesitate to score the wine highly and remark upon how well it showed in comparison to this recent 1985 (not to mention the spate of other disappointing bottles of Margaux from the 1980s that I have also tasted in recent times). I have no problem at all in changing a score, chastising myself for past errors or giving subsequent justice to a wine in question if I prove to be wrong.

Someone above commented that it was “unprofessional” to have scored the 1985 Margaux as I have done in this recent article, if it were based on a single bottle. As I have tried to demonstrate by the lengthy background on the bottle in question and other recent Margaux examples from this decade that I have tasted, this single bottle of 1985 should not be construed as a “single data point.” There is a significant context of recent Margaux examples that have crossed my path of late in which this bottle’s showing was placed. I would rather argue that it would have been “unprofessional” to have not published the note on the disappointing and tiring '85 Margaux, simply because the wine enjoys a strong reputation elsewhere. It certainly would have been easier, more politically correct and commercially more logical to simply not score the wine or not print the note at all. However, I felt that I had a duty to my subscribers to write about the wine as it showed, and to speculate as to why it was not realizing the very fine promise it held in its youth. My conclusion was that the wine had been crafted to show at its best in those very early and seductively beautiful early days, and this decision in the cellar had compromised the wine’s ability to age along the lines of the other successful First Growths in 1985. For what it is worth, I am of the same opinion regarding the 1990 Margaux, as well as a myriad of other more recent examples of claret. I certainly did not set out to blast Margaux from this vintage, nor have any secret agenda, but simply sought to inform my readers of how disappointing the 1985 Margaux was in my preparation of the article and to propose a plausible reason why this might be so. Of course, I am perfectly open to folks sending me examples of 1985 Margaux that they have found to be excellent, and re-issuing a more proper note in the future :slight_smile:

All the Best,

John

John-

I don’t think you are being unprofessional, but I’d be curious to hear your opinion as a writer/critic who uses the 100 or scale.

I appreciate your willingness to retaste & write about older wines, that said I think the 100 point scale is a bit neutered in cases like this. If a bottle is lifeless or over the hill, is it worth rating?

Hi Anthony,

Sure, if the bottle seems to be of pristine provenance, but is in some stage of decline, it still seems worth rating from my perspective. Similarly, a bottle that is still young and not yet into its plateau of maturity is worth rating. But, if one considers a wine like the 1953 Margaux, which is still such a beautiful drink, though it has been fully mature for decades and decades, but remains alive with vibrancy and complexity in its silky middleweight stage of later life, and is tempted to give the wine say a 95 point score, then one has to place a wine like the 1985 Margaux in that context and peg it somewhere on the scale. Now, if someone on the boards had been at the tasting and sampled the same wines and questioned my giving the wine a 70 point score- finding the score should have been 65, 78 or 85- depending on how far they felt the wine had slid into decline, that would be another matter. In fact, there were eight of us at the tasting that evening, and my opinion of the wine was not different from anyone in attendance, to the best of my recollection. I obviously did not share in the bottles listed above that others were so positive about, and cannot comment on those showings. But, I have been to lots of tastings over the years where my assessment of a particular wine in question has differed dramatically from others tasting the same wine, for whatever reason, and it has not always been my imagination that others have found their enjoyment in certain glasses of wine from gazing at the label of a particularly rare or expensive bottle.

All the Best,

John

Thanks John. I appreciate the insight & see where you are coming from.

Cheers!

Might have been a root day :slight_smile:.

An '83 Margaux earlier this year was good but no better than that and completely and utterly outclassed by the '83 Ducru served beside it.

John, please post more often!

John… While all wine tasting notes are about personal taste, what is your point about 85 Pavillon Rouge? Were you expecting more from the wine?

John,
I did not read your article … but if I understand correctly reg. what was written above and what was stated by you (provided my English is sufficient):

  • you tasted the Ch.Margaux 1985 blind, together with other 85 Bx
  • you found the bottle representative for the producer and vintage in the present state
  • it was neither corked nor cooked …
  • it was disapointing and “lifeless”
  • you don´t think it is necessary to retaste it from other bottles
  • you rated it 70 (out of 100) points, which for me is on the border of barely drinkable and flawed
  • you still think it is ok to publish this opinion (almost as a fact)

Well - I disagree at least with points 5 and 7 (but cannot disagree with 4 and 6 since I didn´t taste your particular bottle).
But I´ve tasted this wine Ch.Margaux 1985 5 months ago also blind in a “Mature Bordeaux tasting” … nobody knew which wines were to be served, so no expectations at all …
The 85 M. was (first) spectacular, lively, very deep, full of elegant mature typical Margaux-fruit, very long and (almost) impeccably balanced, certainly a mid-90-point experience. Only after 15 to 20 minutes I detected a certain dryness in the finish (which got more prominent) - a reason for concern … and we reserved a glass while tasting the next flight. Sadly the 85 M. proved to be slightly but definitely TCA-infected … so from a sound bottle it would have been even better still. No tiny hint of “lifelessness” …

The bottle came from the (huge, cool and perfectly kept) cellar of a friend who also participated in this tasting - and who bought it as a future in Austria in 1986/87 …

The showing of this wine was consistent with earlier tastings over 20+ years.

Sorry - I have no idea what happened to “your” bottle - maybe it was a wrongly labelled Pavillon rouge … or a different vintage … or most overseas bottles have suffered from shipping … or a fly had made a piss into the bottle right before filling … or whatever …
but to assume that most or all Ch.Margaux 1985 worldwide are in heavy decline and deserve only 70 points is simply ridiculous.

Moreover: I had a lot of wines incl. Bordeaux that were in (slight) decline, but (with the exception of some no-name-Bordeaux superieur from small vintages) I had never a Bordeaux that was great for 20-25 years … and was so lifeless at age 29 that it deserved only 70 points.
(Even Pichon-Lalande 1984, which was never a great wine and is certainly over apogee was worth 79-80 points recently).

I cannot give you the answer, but I don´t think it´s (3).

Or even address questions in the Sandrone thread :wink:

If you look at the tasting notes in Cellar Tracker, of the recent notes they are all very favorable; only one of them mentioned a bottle that appeared to be off. No one said anything about a lifeless 85 Ch. Margaux.

Since I wasn’t present at this tasting, I can’t say whether I would have agreed with Mr. Gilman’s notes and scores on that particular bottle. Some bottles overachieve, and others underachieve. Nevertheless, what he has written above is not consistent with what I would expect from a sound bottle of 1985 Ch. Margaux.

Bruce

[rofl.gif]

I like Mr. John Gilman and love to read his writings. Weather I agree with him or not …and …is another matter…

I like the idea of a wine critic who will tell his version of the truth, even if he might make the occasional mistake. Better that than 100 point sycophants.

I think accusations of his posting an opinion being unprofessional are ridiculous. Is Ch Margaux still selling the '85? He is not undermining anybody’s business, he just believes a winery underperformed its reputation for ten years.

If somebody invites him to a Margaux vertical, and the same wines were excellent, I’m confident he’d post about it. But infrequent tastings are a byproduct of an indy critic paying his own way.

FTR, I am not a subscriber.

The tasting was at a friend’s house. I very much doubt Mr. Gilman paid to attend the tasting. Perhaps it is easier to declare 85 Margaux over the hill based on a single bottle than tell a friend his wine, which Mr Gilman sold him many years ago, was mildly corked/off.

As a subscriber, I feel compelled to mention that Todd has to buy a new disk drive every time John posts.

We need to get Gilman and Schildknecht into a battle of wits.

For whatever it is worth, I’ve had the subject wine twice (neither time blind as I opened the bottles), and, liked the first one a lot (mid June 2005). The second bottle was just around 5 years after - it wasn’t very interesting - so much so that I didn’t bother posting about it. If I were coerced to use the 100-point scale, I’d not rate the second bottle as low as “70” though - probably around the low 80s, which, if one were to consider its price, is not at all a good deal.

I’ve had the 1985 Palmer at least twice (to the best of my recollection), both bottles from the cellars of Palmer, courtesy of 2 French friends. Both bottles were very nice.

Best,

N

My concern was that there was an intimation that because the bottle had been stored in an ‘ideal’ cellar, that it was being claimed that this bottle couldn’t have been down to the vagaries of cork/bottle variation. I was happy to see John make it clear he was not claiming this as absolute.

regards
Ian

While I have never had the 1985 Margaux and thus have no opinion on it I do feel compelled to mention that negative reviews are not exactly common (nor by many people on this board - encouraged) on Cellartracker.

That said, I trust John’s palate though as others have mentioned there is always the chance of bottle variation even for pristinely stored bottles.

If I read you correctly, think that’s an unfair insinuation: Mr. Gilman repeatedly said that, in his opinion, the wine wasn’t corked, but you’re suggesting that perhaps he wasn’t being truthful because he sold his friend that bottle many years ago?