Yes, Les Pallieres does not qualify as a cheap CdP alternative.
The first time I ever met Tom Hill was at HdR in 2001.
Prior to that I had followed his posts and learned that he stayed at a certain B&B in Templeton.
So I booked a room at the same B&B for me and my wife so as to enable me to stalk “The Great Tom Hill” as I imagined him from his epic posts back then.
What a let-down that proved to be. He was/is a normal guy with a codpiece.
(As a needless aside, Pax Mahle was staying there as well with a friend of his. He came down to the breakfast table with his friend and loudly proclaimed-“No, we are not a couple” as they sat down-as if anyone cared)
Anyhow, over breakfast Dr. Hill mentioned he did not care for CdP and he thought they were highly overrated for what they are.
It took me 15 years to come around to his view.
I still like a few; Vieux Telegraphe, Pegau, Pierre Usseglio, but as a whole…
While I am rambling, I remember that at that same first-morning breakfast table gathering, I was wearing a T-shirt with a Ridge logo and Pax took me to great task for being a Ridge fan. He said something like “that cliche of a winery is a has-been and is greatly overrated”.
Where do you folks place St. Damien in the mix? I’ve been enjoying them since the 2007 vintage, but do find the alcohols high in riper years. The rose has become a summer favorite since discovery a couple of years ago.
Cheers,
fred
As with anything else, it depends on which Gigondas and which CdP. The list you give is (mostly) one of traditional producers. As a wild generalization, I would say that Gigondas producers are much more enamored of oak then even the spoofiest CdP special cuvees. St. Cosme and Santa Duc are particular offenders, along with Brusset. And there are a number of others. And, on the other hand, seconding someone’s list above of Vieux Telegraphe, Charvin, Beaucastel, to which one could add, Ferrand, Pegau, Mourre du Tendre, Eddie Feraud and Bois de Boursan, you could easily avoid the worst pitfalls of CdP. It is true, though, that, for whatever reason, CdPs were more marked by the 07 vintage than Gigondas or Vacqueyras and so, if one started with that vintage, one might have the impression that, generally, the wines were less over the top. But I don’t really think, as a generalization, that that’s the case. There. A fight.
To Fred Bower, I very much like St. Damien, and I shouldn’t because it’s a Cambie wine. But it doesn’t taste like one. And it particularly rewards aging. For those who get Chambers St. mailings, I also recommend Joncuas, both Gigondas and Vacqueyras.
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Jim,
1st it´s simply a matter of taste.
2nd: imho there are no Gigondas that can reach the absolute heights the very best CdPs can reach … but there are a lot of very fine and enjoyable Gigondas (and Vacqueyras, and Rastau and Cairanne …) - and if you take into account the (usual) difference in price it may well be the better choice for YOU … nothing wrong with that!
(However also Gigondas has gone up in price over the last decade …)
The only ones I’ve had were 2 bottles of the 2006(?). It tasted like thick, alcoholic soup with little redeeming acid. If it was dialed back, it would have been better, because good material was there.
Oh, in the spirit of the OP topic…
I drank a '99 Beaucastel last week and enjoyed every bit as much as the '15 St. Damien Louisiane I had Tuesday. I probably paid half as much for the St. Damien last year as I did for the Beaucastel 7 years ago, so I did enjoy that aspect of the Gigondas more than the CdP, but from a pure wine experience perspective, I think that both appellations provide me with great wines cut from similar cloth. And, to CdP’s benefit, there are white wines in the appellation that also hold my interest and often don’t cost as much as the red. I’d nerd out on a Gigondas blanc as much as I do on the CdP blanc if I could find such a thing. I haven’t seen a CdP rose, so I suppose it goes both ways…
I will conclude my mushy argument with the statement that I’ve had profound CdP experiences. I’ve not yet had a Gigondas experience that I would classify as profound. For that reason alone, CdP remains on my radar.
Cheers,
fred
I think it really depends on the vintage and winemakers. CdP was a fruity, if dirty wine for many years. Then Parker came along and they cleaned up and he loved them. The wines are going to be ripe anyway, but a few producers started making bigger and badder wines. Then they started making single variety or single vineyard wines rather than blends. Then the wines started becoming more and more expensive.
Gigondas and all the other areas took note. They wanted the “prestige” of being known designated appellations. Gigondas already had that from back in the 1970s. Vacqueyras only got it in 1990. But they started cleaning up and following the CdP path. For a period between the mid 1990s and the early 2000s, they started becoming very good alternatives to CdP as the CdP prices escalated.
Today, some wines from Gigondas are pretty expensive. But what’s more interesting to me is that another generation is coming into the picture both in CdP and the other areas and they seem less obsessed with obtaining Parker points. Maybe that’s just wishful thinking, but if I were to place bets, I’d say that the Cambie era has kind of peaked and while he’s still a big influence, it’s more nuanced now and the idea is more than big and ripe and 100 points.
I think the south Rhone in general is a great area to watch right now and the 2007 and 2009 vintages might be done differently today.
Jim, I completely agree re cdp – even though it took some time to arrive at that conclusion, since I have long been a sucker for that sometimes elusive garrigue.
Very very few cdp’s have ever been truly memorable for me – 1990 Pegau and Beaucastel stick out. (Rayas obviously in its own category.) And very few seem to live very long – Mont Redon a notable exception. Then there is that spoof factor. And finally, pricing, which seems perpetually stuck in an RP-fueled bubble.
I tend to put wines into buckets. Simplistically, there is “fancy” and “everyday”. If the pleasure I get from cdp puts it in the mere “everyday” bucket, why pay cdp prices? Frankly, I will happily take some cdr’s with often more character, with a burger, and at a fraction of the price.
All very true. I do like that everyone posting so far is comfortable with their palate and preferences on way or the other.
One of my most memorable wine experiences was an ancient Clos de l’Orotoire des Papes opened after an array of disappointing old Burgundies. Totally magical wine. While I agree that the highs of CDP are much higher than Gigondas, taking into account what I prefer from the Southern Rhône the latter makes more sense for me.
Good to know about Santa Duc and St Cosme. Thank you.
“Gigondas” is more fun to say. That’s why I prefer it.
I’ve loved Gigondas for ever and a day, but also enjoy Chateauneuf du Pape and many other Southern Rhone appellations. I guess for me re Gigondas vs Chateauneuf that the former has that little extra freshness and minerality, while the latter offers extra plushness and depth. I certainly look forward to drinking both for many years to come. That said, I’ve had more failures with Chateauneuf (particularly in 2003 & 2007 and some 2009’s) with some wineries chasing huge ripeness which took them into a porty, soupy spectrum that were just unpleasant to drink.
Long had a soft spot for Cayron, but can also suggest in no particular order Bouissiere, Clos de Cazaux, Les Pallieres, Raspail-Ay, Brusset, St Cosme (getting up there in price now), Clos de Joncuas, Domaine des Bosquet & Moulin de la Gardette.There are many others that I just don’t get access to in my country. Switching ac and the Domaine de la Mordoree Liracs are another old favourite and pricing is very fair for the quality.
That´s what I heavily disagree with.
I´ve had many dozens of CdPs beyond age 30 years - and rarely have I found one that was past its best (and when … it was due to the bottle condition).
Recently a 1949 (Chapoutier bottling) was one of the two best wines of a long evening …
Sure one can prefer his/her CdP rather younger than older - but “few seem to live very long” is simply wrong - and more so if you exclude the extremely modern productions …
Gerhard – I defer to your obviously more extensive experience with cdp. Yes I made a blanket statement, based on my experience with probably a few dozen 15+ year-old cdp’s, that probably should have been qualified. I suspect some of my data set had “bottle issues”, but most did not. And I agree on the modernistas – my own sampling has been mainly traditional.
Curious what is the experience of others here regarding the ageability of cdp and or grenache in general?
I’d echo the recommendations here for Gour de Chaule. These wines are ferocious, a little wild, and structured. Very old- school style of S. Rhône.
Kelly, not too much experience (between 12-18 bottles consumed over 25 years from vintage), but have had marvelous examples of Beaucastel, Donjon & Pegau from the 80’s that were very good to great and certainly more interesting in almost every way than recent vintages of the same. '89 Beau was revelatory the 1st time I had it just 4 or 5 years ago.
Beaucastel, Vieux Telegraphe, Pegau, Charvin and Mourre du Tendre are, at the very least, long agers. Prior to 03, so were Clos des Papes and Vieux Donjon. There are some others. But mdoern overripe styles do not do as well, I think. And really, CdP is no different than anywhere else in having a small proportion of producers who stand out in this respect.
I find for Gigondas and Vacqueyras, 10-15 years is usually a limit. There are exceptions. Des Tours in Vacqueyras is an obvious one. I’ve found that Raspail-Ay and Domaines des Garrigues in Gigondas can go longer (but the Garrigues Gigondas is not really available outside of the domaine, Les Florets and the Caveau in Gigondas).
Not to forget Bois de Boursan - in France also sold as “VERSINO” (orange label): I had many old vintage like 1978, 1981, 1984 (yes, good), 1989 (!), 1990, 1994 … very traditional CdP.
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