German Spatburgunder (MAJOR UPDATES)

[Robert_Dentice]

My pleasure. It was a real eye opening opportunity to try so many wines. And an overall really good time with good music and great food. I will doing more of these in the Mosel.

[Mikael_OB]

Hope to be able to make it for the next one there!

[Andy_Sc]

@Robert_Dentice

2021 Julian Haart Pinot Noir

Graciously sent ahead by Julian. I have to say my expecations were sky high. Initially this was closed hard. Over about an hour it blossomed into a seductive, beautifully pure and complex Pinot. I hate to say this as I despise this crutch BUT this was the first wine that made me think of Burgundy. I do feel like wines like this will redifine Pinot in the Mosel…

Is this a new micro production? Can’t find it on winesearcher or cellartracker.

[Robert_Dentice]

It has not been released yet.

[Russell_Faulkner]

I don’t think it will hit wine-searcher!

[Lars_Carlberg]

In our translation of Karl Heinrich Koch’s Moselwein, I included two footnotes on red wine in the Mosel region in the late 19th century. The second one is a brief note on the once famous Pinot Noir from Könen on the Saar.

Spätburgunder (Pinot Noir) was the main red variety, followed by Frühburgunder (Pinot Noir Précoce) and a little Portuguieser, according to F.W. Koch in Weine. A small amount of red wine was produced in Könen (Saar), Maring-Noviand, and Ürzig, as well as in Trier, Trier-Olewig, Trier-Ruwer (Ruwer-Maximin), Piesport, Lütz, and Lehmen. An auction ad from 1877 even lists a Fuder of red 1875 Eitelsbacher Karthäuserhofberger and a Halbfuder of 1875 Ockfener Herrenberger. August Trinius, in Durch’s Moseltal: Ein Wanderbuch (Through the Mosel Valley: A Guide Book, 1897), wrote that the Mosel’s red-wine production, mostly in the Lieser Valley (Maring-Noviand), was minuscule, unlike that farther north on the predominantly slate slopes of the Ahr. Spätburgunder was also produced in Assmannshausen (slate) and Ingelheim (limestone) on the Rhine, as well as in Baden.

The red vines were grubbed up in 1920. Frau Wwe. Jul. Gensterblum offered her bottle-aged Pinot Noirs from Schabberg and Nonnenberg in 100-bottle packs at the Trier auctions, including one Fuder of 1892 Schabberger Auslese. These “Cönener” red wines were described in an article on the 1898 Wine Congress as being similar to those of the Burgundy’s Côte d’Or.

Mosel Fine Wines has this issue highlight on Tobias Feiden’s 2016 Winninger Spätburgunder Marbleous, which includes a brief history of red wine in the Mosel Valley.

[Robert_Dentice]

Amazing! Thanks very much.

@Lars_Carlberg by the way I made a Frühburgunder Rose in 2023!

[Lars_Carlberg]

Is your Frühburgunder rosé from the Mosel?

[Robert_Dentice]

Franken. Peter Leipold.

[Lars_Carlberg]

That’s what I thought. He visited Hofgut Falkenstein last Saturday. I wasn’t there, but I helped set up his visit.

He seemed to like the 2023s from cask, especially Gisela.

[Andrew_Hall]

Highly relevant to this discusssion : (https://www.lost-barrels.com/)

Mayer-Nakel had 9 barrels survive the floods and are selling the wines as special lots. I was told 600€ per bottle.

[Mikael_OB]

Had these two Spätburgunders over the weekend and it was maybe not a fair comparison with winemakers and vintages but the Adeneuer unfortunately threw in the towel.

2015 JJ Adeneuer Spätburgunder
I was quite excited to have forgotten this bottle in the storage to see how an entry level wine from Ahr had held up. Ahr valley is one of the areas I have explored surprisingly little, and feel I should (want to) learn more about.

Love to test the entry bottlings from wineries as it tells you quite a bit about them. This wine was unfortunately gone, quite ok on the nose but the wine had fade for the rest. Quite disappointed and down the drain it went.

2018 Stein Redvolution
This was far from a disappointment. I was surprised how good it was in fact. It’s my third red from Stein, and the previous (2018 light light and 2017 Revolution) have both been good, this however was a clear step up in “seriousness” and depth.

This had more filling in terms of complexity - in taste profile, texture and (Red)evolution over time in the bottle/glass. Kind of in the direction of a Chambertin perhaps (?), could not spot any of the regular telltale of German Pinot. I would be very curious to hear Ulli’s thoughts on the vintage but also between the 2018s, as for me this was a surprisingly good bottle.

[Robert_Dentice]

Love seeing such a positive note on an Ulli wine, a Spätburgunder no less. Thanks for posting both notes.

[Mikael_OB]

@Robert_Dentice

Love seeing such a positive note on an Ulli wine, a Spätburgunder no less. Thanks for posting both notes.

Thanks Robert, and indeed a Spätburgunder - one that took me a bit by surprise.

Probably a result of the vintage. From the 2018s I have had, I have to say that there is a darker, more structured quality and weight to the wines while they at the same time retain the freshness. Knew Baden showed this direction but didn’t expect a Mosel wine to show it as much as this bottle did.

[Pau1_M3nk3s]

Frühburgunder alert: I had two over the holidays that were gifted to me by @Luke_A last Fall.

The first was a 2021 Ingelheimer from J. Neus. It was not the most complex wine, but it had the signature lip smacking fruit with a decent acidity to make it a real pleasure. Unfortunately it came in a tiny 750 ml bottle and was gone far too quickly. This bottle can be found in North America if you are interested. Neus also makes at least one interesting Spätburgunder GG, from a clone only found in their Pares vineyard.

The second was a Frühburgunder from the Ahr, from Brogsitter. AFIK this is not available in North America. The 2020 Brogsitter Ad Aram Ahr Frühburgunder Trocken states “Im Barrique Gereift” right on the front label. With the Ahr’s reputation for over-oaked Pinot, I was a bit wary of it. Instead I found a well-balanced wine that preserves the drink me quality of Frühburgunder along with just a bit of structure. I think this could age little. My only quibble is once again the wine came in a ridiculously tiny 750 and disappeared far too quickly. I would definitely check this out, and I wouldn’t mind seeing what they can do with their Spätburgunder as well!
Edit: thanks again @Luke_A !

[Robert_Dentice]

Some history for this thread.

The first vintage of Enderle & Moll:

The first vintage of E&M next to the first vintage of Wasenhaus:

And the back label of the 07 E&M

[Mikael_OB]

@Mikael_OB

Had these two Spätburgunders over the weekend and it was maybe not a fair comparison with winemakers and vintages but the Adeneuer unfortunately threw in the towel.

2015 JJ Adeneuer Spätburgunder
I was quite excited to have forgotten this bottle in the storage to see how an entry level wine from Ahr had held up. Ahr valley is one of the areas I have explored surprisingly little, and feel I should (want to) learn more about.

Love to test the entry bottlings from wineries as it tells you quite a bit about them. This wine was unfortunately gone, quite ok on the nose but the wine had fade for the rest. Quite disappointed and down the drain it went.

2018 Stein Redvolution
This was far from a disappointment. I was surprised how good it was in fact. It’s my third red from Stein, and the previous (2018 light light and 2017 Revolution) have both been good, this however was a clear step up in “seriousness” and depth.

This had more filling in terms of complexity - in taste profile, texture and (Red)evolution over time in the bottle/glass. Kind of in the direction of a Chambertin perhaps (?), could not spot any of the regular telltale of German Pinot. I would be very curious to hear Ulli’s thoughts on the vintage but also between the 2018s, as for me this was a surprisingly good bottle.

I should add that this was an “Ohne”, I guess this means no added sulfur. If that’s correct then worth adding that it was very pure (nothing weird and “no-natural wine” fan safe).

[Andrew_Hall]

Had the '18 Keller Spatburgunder Reserve tonight and I have to say it was disappointing. Lovely top notes of tart fruit and just a hint of savory and spice, but the body was absolutely anemic and the overall affect was shrill. My wife - who has been going gaga for other SB lately - gave it a absolute nein.

I know this a bit of a toss-off cuvée of younger vines, but still really a letdown.

[LasseK]

Think I’ve mentioned it before in this thread. But also haven’t been impressed with it, the few times I’ve tasted it. But have not had any recent vintages. I think his son Felix is more involved with the Spätburgunder now which is interesting.

[Jozef.P]

Question for the connoisseurs - will be visiting a 3* in Germany next week (Sonnora), and this is the list of German red wines they have. Any leads on which to try? I am not familiar with most of them (vs the riesling list, where I found some older auslese wines, that I’d be looking to try depending on the menu).

Edit: have taken out prices, as the restaurant was so kind to send list in advance, and pricing is reasonable, so no need for detailed figures.

Mosel

Weingut Markus Molitor, Wehlen
2013 Brauneberger Klostergarten
Pinot Noir *** Qualitätswein trocken

2010 Trarbacher Schlossberg
Pinot Noir ** Qualitätswein trocken

2008 Brauneberger Klostergarten
Pinot Noir *** Qualitätswein trocken

Daniel Twardowski, Neumagen-Dhron
2019 Pinot Noix „Ardoise“
Qualitätswein trocken

2017 Pinot Noix „Ardoise“
Qualitätswein trocken

2016 Pinot Noix „Ardoise“
Qualitätswein trocken

2016 Pinot Noix „Ardoise“ 1,5l Magnum
Qualitätswein trocken

Franken

Weingut Benedikt Baltes
2016 Klingenberg „wurzelecht“
Portugieser Qualitätswein trocken

2015 Klingenberg „Alte Reben“
Spätburgunder Qualitätswein trocken

2014 Klingenberg Schloßberg GG
Spätburgunder Qualitätswein trocken

Weingut Fürst, Bürgstadt
2019 Centgrafenberg
Spätburgunder Qualitätswein trocken

2017 Spätburgunder Tradition
Qualitätswein trocken

2017 Hundsrück
Spätburgunder Qualitätswein trocken

2015 Hundsrück
Spätburgunder Qualitätswein trocken

2014 Centgrafenberg
Frühburgunder Qualitätswein trocken

Ahr

Weingut Deutzerhof, Mayschoss
2015 Alpha & Omega
Frühburgunder Qualitätswein trocken

2009 Eck GG
Spätburgunder Qualitätswein trocken

2007 Melchior C
Spätburgunder Qualitätswein trocken

Weingut Meyer-Näkel, Dernau
2021 Blauschiefer
Spätburgunder Qualitätswein trocken

2017 Dernauer Pfarrwingert
Spätburgunder Qualitätswein trocken

2016 Walporzheimer Kräuterberg
Spätburgunder Qualitätswein trocken

Weingut Jean Stodden, Rech
2021 Recher Spätburgunder
Qualitätswein trocken

2019 Recher Herrenberg
Spätburgunder Qualitätswein trocken

2019 Spätburgunder „JS“
Qualitätswein trocken

Württemberg

Weingut Aldinger, Fellbach
2017 Fellbacher Lämmler Lemberger GG
Qualitätswein trocken

Weingut Dautel, Bönnigheim
2017 Kreation Rot
Qualitätswein trocken

2017 Michaelsberg Lemberger GG
Qualitätswein trocken

Weingut Schwegler, Korb
2019 Pinot Noir „Reserve“
Qualitätswein trocken

2018 Beryll
Qualitätswein trocken

2016 Granat
Qualitätswein trocken

Pfalz

Weingut Friedrich Becker, Schweigen
2015 Spätburgunder „B“
Qualitätswein trocken

2010 Spätburgunder Reserve
Qualitätswein trocken

2009 Spätburgunder Reserve
Qualitätswein trocken

2008 Spätburgunder Reserve
Qualitätswein trocken

Weingut Knipser, Laumersheim
2018 Cuvée X
Qualitätswein trocken

2012 Spätburgunder Reserve
Qualitätswein trocken

2009 Syrah
Qualitätswein trocken

Weingut Philipp Kuhn, Laumersheim
2017 Laumersheimer Kirschgarten GG
Spätburgunder Qualitätswein trocken

2015 Cabernet Sauvignon „Reserve“
Qualitätswein trocken

Weingut Stefan Meyer, Rhodt
2015 Frühburgunder
Qualitätswein trocken

Weingut Rebholz, Siebeldingen
2015 Spätburgunder „Tradition“
Qualitätswein trocken

2013 Spätburgunder Im Sonnenschein
Qualitätswein trocken

2011 Spätburgunder Im Sonnenschein
Qualitätswein trocken

Baden

Weingut Forgeurac, St. Leon
2016 Steinsatz Pinot Noir
Badischer Landwein trocken

Weingut Dr. Heger, Ihringen
2015 Ihringer Vorderer Winklerberg GG
Spätburgunder Qualitätswein trocken

2013 Ihringer Winklerberg Spätburgunder „Mimus“
Qualitätswein trocken

Weingut Huber, Malterdingen
2020 Spätburgunder „Alte Reben“
Qualitätswein trocken

2018 Malterdinger Spätburgunder
Qualitätswein trocken

2014 Hecklinger Schloßberg GG 1,5l Magnum
Spätburgunder Qualitätswein trocken

2002 Spätburgunder „Alte Reben“ 1,5l Magnum
Qualitätswein trocken

Weingut Ziereisen, Efringen-Kirchen
2017 Spätburgunder „Jaspis“
Badischer Landwein trocken