Figeac vertical and wondering about Bordeaux critics

[David_Bu3ker]

It’s OK. I don’t like you.

[Craig_G]

@Robert.A.Jr

I really did wonder WTF old school faves like Figeac and Conseillante were doing flipping to modernist consultants. Funny that we are seeing the tides recede now, but I have not had Figeac or Conseillante since the 2014 vintages, and only bought 2016 out of curiosity.

I haven’t tasted them side by side so I’m not sure what this is worth, but my impression was that the 2017 La Conseillante was less “modern” than the 2014, at least in the sense of the oak treatment. The 17 is gorgeous though it seemed to be shutting down a bit in my most recent tasting.

[Johan_Beglund]

@Robert.A.Jr

True. Absolutes are hard. We can all be fooled.

But I look at it through the prism of a simple country lawyer: If 75% of the wines - or heck let’s say 50% of the wines - made by Rolland are a bit much for my clunky palate, why would I ever buy another? With my money, I want to hit 8-9 times out of ten or better. I will not knowingly buy anything touched by him, even totally acknowledging y’all’s point that some of his wines might be fine or that some of his wines, blind, I might like. With my money, the word “might” is generally unacceptable, when there is a wealth of fine Bordeaux, that I love and generally do not disappoint. And that’s leaving aside my very dogmatic, ideological thought about guys like him, that want to place his imprimatur on top of the entire region of Bordeaux, in a manner that really does lose touch with the site and even the region. I have had some wines by him that are virtually indistinguishable from a Napa Cab. I live in America, I might as well buy the cab if I were to accept Rolland. Incidentally, one can even find him here in the States, ironically from producers that perhaps are seeking to mimick Bordeaux. It’s a fool’s errand. Good riddance is what I say, even if, as you say, he’s a fun and nice guy. That’s a different issue, of course.

All seems fair enough to me. It’s more a personal reflection than anything else on how I’ve come to see things and how my once strong opinions have mellowed.

The tasting notes I gave as reference point in an earlier post have been eye openers for me. Correct me if I’m wrong but the later ones are not wines formed by Rolland? Yet the notes themselves seem to describe wines which by the standard of todays flavour of the month would probably be considered as exemplifying wines and winemakers hopelessly stuck in the past. Yet we all agree (?) that they are just brilliant examples of archetypal Bordeaux which ages like no other wine.

If Bordeaux loses too much of it’s power and the pendulum swings too far towards that word which for me seems to cause an allergic reaction at times… Burgundian, then I think it will also lose what I love about it. I doubt very much that is how the legends of today tasted as barrel samples 20, 40 or 60 years ago.

That being said, I just love so many wines from 19 and 20 it’s not even funny.

[Jeff_Leve]

@Robert.A.Jr

I really did wonder WTF old school faves like Figeac and Conseillante were doing flipping to modernist consultants.

There are 2 main reasons. First, the wines are better today. And, folks like you were not buying futures of Figeac. The market agrees as prices are up considerably. Consumers are buying the wines which matters.

It does no good for a property when you or others buy older vintages and rave about them. It’s not relevant. They make wine every year and need to sell them.

[Jeff_Leve]

@Marcu_Stanley

I went to a Figeac vertical tasting the other night. The tasting was put together by Panos Kakaviatos who is a fantastic presence in the DC and the larger wine community with his enthusiasm, writing, and organizational efforts…

Being in Bordeaux and tasting 2022 at the moment, I don’t have time to comment on the wines. But your opening comments are incredibly self entitled.

Why should Figeac send you any wine? Who are you to them ? If it means that much to you to taste a wine, go to the store and buy a bottle.

I think providing any bottles and paying for the shipping was quite generous.

[Julian_Marshall]

The words pot, kettleand black spring to mind!

[Pat_Martin]

@Jeff_Leve

the wines. But your opening comments are incredibly self entitled.

You see Marcus, if you only rated current release (for sale) Figeac 98+ points and called them the “best ever”, they’d be more than happy to send you all the free samples you could ever want! With such effusive praise, retailers might even be willing to include your notes on their websites, not for their influence on the market, no!, but for the quality of your palate and your flair for writing.

And if you happen to become a Supreme Court justice, there are a few billionaires who’d love to meet you and become your close buddy.

[JuergenS]

I would not be surprised if the wines from 2018 and 2015 will be better liked in some years. 2018 is full of baby fat and the 2015 very likely closed at the moment.

The hardest thing in evaluating wine is making predictions how it or an entire vintage will evolve. 40 years of experience in tasting and drinking wine lead me to the lesson that surprises are more of a rule than the exception.

[Jeff_Leve]

@Pat_Martin

@Jeff_Leve

the wines. But your opening comments are incredibly self entitled.

You see Marcus, if you only rated current release (for sale) Figeac 98+ points and called them the “best ever”, they’d be more than happy to send you all the free samples you could ever want! With such effusive praise, retailers might even be willing to include your notes on their websites, not for their influence on the market, no!, but for the quality of your palate and your flair for writing.

And if you happen to become a Supreme Court justice, there are a few billionaires who’d love to meet you and become your close buddy.

I do not ask for older vintages. I receive 1 bottle of the most recent, in bottle vintage for review. The year or vintage character does not matter. I also visit Figeac on a yearly basis every April to taste in barrel,

I publish a well read wine site and my notes are used by retailers all over Internet.

If you and Julien do not see a difference, well, that’s on you.

[Marcu_Stanley]

Jeff, I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that because you’re busy you didn’t read the post very carefully. Obviously I would never ever expect any producer to send me any wine for free or anything like it. I was commenting on the vintages supplied by the producer for the (paid) event, which seemed quite limited/restricted. Given that, I don’t believe the event would have gotten the turnout it did if not for Panos’ involvement and the connections he has in the DC wine community. This means that the event was probably not as useful in building goodwill as it could have been.

[Otto_Forsberg]

@Jeff_Leve

First, the wines are better today. And, folks like you were not buying futures of Figeac. The market agrees as prices are up considerably. Consumers are buying the wines which matters.
(…)
They make wine every year and need to sell them.

More people does not equate with better quality. More people buying them equates to more people are buying them. Correlation does not imply causation.

It’s possible that the wines are better. But it is equally possible that they have more mass appeal - which is a conpletely different metric from quality. It’s definitely possible that quality goes down while mass appeal goes up.

Musar is a wine of great quality but relatively little mass appeal. I’d argue that the qualities that hinder its mass appeal are pretty much tied to its high quality - if they tried to make Musar that would have more mass appeal, its quality would suffer. I’m pretty sure they would flip more bottles, make more money etc., but I’m 100% positive that every Musarist would agree that the wines would have dipped in quality.

I’m not saying that this has happened at Figeac. I’m just saying your reasoning isn’t thorough.

[Yule_Kim]

I’m wondering how long it will take before the thread devolves into the " best vintages of red burgundy" phase of Bordeaux conversations on Berserkers.

[David_Bu3ker]

Or just devolves into a discussion about Burgundy.

[Marcu_Stanley]

@Jeff_Leve

@Robert.A.Jr

I really did wonder WTF old school faves like Figeac and Conseillante were doing flipping to modernist consultants.

There are 2 main reasons. First, the wines are better today. And, folks like you were not buying futures of Figeac. The market agrees as prices are up considerably. Consumers are buying the wines which matters.

It does no good for a property when you or others buy older vintages and rave about them. It’s not relevant. They make wine every year and need to sell them.

I’m not sure the market is so down on old school Figeac. I’ve been surprised at how the prices of older vintages are still quite high – competitive or higher than current releases – even though critics were not very enthusiastic about them. Goes to show that there are a lot of people with independent taste out there which I think is a good thing.

[Andy_Sc]

@Marcu_Stanley

I’m not sure the market is so down on old school Figeac. I’ve been surprised at how the prices of older vintages are still quite high – competitive or higher than current releases – even though critics were not very enthusiastic about them. Goes to show that there are a lot of people with independent taste out there which I think is a good thing.

Looking at the price development of older vintages, it‘s quite obvious (see winesearcher analytics) that the big move up started when 15/16/18/19/20 came along and got high scores and the respective En Primeur price increases. Not uncommon.

[Andy_Sc]

It seems I‘m luckier than many here in that I have appreciation for a broader range of styles. While some of the best Bordeauxs I had in recent years have been older (some 61/82/89/90s) or truly old (1900 Lafite, some 45/47/49s), I had superb experiences with more recent vintages too (a few 09/10/15/19s, so many 16s; with the common ground being purity, complexity, weightlessness and balance). Different eras, completely different styles, but so much intellectual and hedonistic pleasure in each era.

I can totally understand that one has a strong preference for one or the other era, though. I‘m probably just lucky to be wired differently.

[Mark_Golodetz]

I would be happy to do a really comprehensive Figeac in the Fall, going back to the forties and fifties. As I am a fan of the older wines, I think it makes sense to really compare them to the recent wines. The problem is there are nearly 30 vintages, so that we would need to do two tastings over a weekend.

If I think I can get interest from enough people, at least a dozen to share the cost, I would be happy to start an on line thread.

[Jeff_Leve]

That had nothing to do with my point. I love many vintages of older Figeac. But that’s wasn’t my point either.

[Jeff_Leve]

@Marcu_Stanley

Jeff, I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that because you’re busy you didn’t read the post very carefully. Obviously I would never ever expect any producer to send me any wine for free or anything like it. I was commenting on the vintages supplied by the producer for the (paid) event, which seemed quite limited/restricted. Given that, I don’t believe the event would have gotten the turnout it did if not for Panos’ involvement and the connections he has in the DC wine community. This means that the event was probably not as useful in building goodwill as it could have been.

That’s not exactly what you wrote. That being said, I’m confused here. Are you saying your group bought these wines directly from Figeac?

I’m curious. But regardless, if you wanted other vintages, why not buy them and share the cost with the attendees so you could taste the wines ?

[etomasi]

Not sure this is relevant, but Panos did have an Figeac vertical dinner in DC a few years back and a Figeac rep was there.

here it is: TN: Chateau Figeac dinner with Mr. Eric d'Aramon