Experience with cellar damage insurance claims

[Mike_Francisco]

@warrenporter

@Chuck Miller

I’m sorry, but your client ‘estimates a few days over 75’ and is filing a damage claim against an insurance company??? First, unless the timeframe is much longer than a few days, and/or the temp got well above the stated temp AND THERE IS EITHER PROOF OF THAT, OR THERE IS SOME EVIDENCE OF DAMAGE (like seepage), they have brass balls to make such a claim. If I was the insurance company, without more evidence, I would tell them to pound sand. Its CHUBB, not CHUMP. They are good and reputable.

Their wine is likely to have experienced similar temps over a similar timeframe during transit and/or sitting on a retail shelf.

Thanks…there was some seepage and protruding corks but he can’t nail down the exact duration and temp.

Unless they are large format bottles stored improperly (flat on their sides with all the weight pushing on the cork) I don’t see how a few day in the 80s could do this, or allot of “mom and pop” stores would have to clean wine off the floor all summer long. Is the cellar in a car sitting in the sun? I would think in a home with no heating or cooling it would take several days over 100f or well below freezing for that kind of damage.

[ky1em1ttskus]

No way 80* causes seepage and/or protruding corks.

[GregT]

I know a couple of the attorneys who handled that coffee case. Their argument was that MacDonald’s had been told several times in the past that the coffee was served hot enough to cause burns but it was still served that way because they also got complaints from people who didn’t drink it right away but took it to the office or work and the coffee got too cold. The lady held the coffee between her legs while she drove.

I always wondered why they didn’t sue the car company as well, for making windows big enough to pass a coffee cup through, and for not supplying an insulated holder with a built-in warmer for coffee, or a cooler for soft drinks, both of which might have prevented the tragedy. The burns were gruesome but that’s the problem with tort law - people feel sorry for the injured party and feel compensation is due from someone else. There are of course many people, probably most, who would never put a cup of anything between their legs in a car, whether hot or cold, simply to avoid spills on their seat and clothes.

Bringing it back to the OP however, the plaintiff’s attorneys had “experts” testify that coffee tastes better at a slightly cooler temperature. And some folks suggested that it was kept very hot so as to mask the fact that it was bad coffee anyway. So there you have it. Get an expert to claim that the wine is ruined.

But there are more questions. In addition to the points made by others, especially the fact that the wine was most likely at the same temps before it was ever acquired, and regardless of whether protruding corks and seepage are caused by heat (an ignorant jury can be convinced of pretty much anything) does the client have evidence that the “damage” did not precede the failure of the cooling unit? How old is the unit? Is it still under warranty or is it far past its useful life expectancy? Was an extended warranty offered? Was it used within the temperature ranges specified? Did the client make a practice of frequently standing in front of his wine with the door open so he could gaze at his collection, straining the cooling unit? Was there plenty of free air space around it and was it kept free from dust?

More importantly, what exactly was the damage to each bottle and what does the client want for that damage? Are the bottles quite undrinkable because of the heat damaged caused specifically by the failure of the unit? Can the client distinguish between a pristine bottle and those of his collection or is it a theoretical fear he has?

Regarding that study - most of the “literature” on wine storage is written by hobbyists, bloggers, wine writers, etc. They basically repeat each other. Here are a few references you can look at for further info:

Effects of heat exposure on wine quality during transport and storage

TN09.pdf

FS-58-W.pdf

http://www.gcca.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Wines.pdf

And here’s an earlier thread on the subject:

https://wineimport.discoursehosting.net/t/older-cal-cabs-for-sale/439/1

[Jay_Miller]

@Rich Brown

@Jeff Vaughan

I agree with Chuck’s comments. The wine likely saw similar temperatures before it made it into the cellar.

As far as the coffee spill, I believe the woman should have only received a settlement if the McDonald’s employee spilled the coffee on her or had a role in that during the hand off. If she spilled it on herself, I don’t think McDonald’s should have been liable.

That’s where my head has always been at with the McDonald’s coffee thing, but I’ve never really looked into it and definitely have not seen any pics. Certainly wasn’t trying to make light of someone getting seriously burned if that was the case, so my apologies if it came across that way. #NotTheBestComparison

The 79 year old woman suffered extensive 3rd degree burns with permanent scarring. And the McDonalds manual required that coffee be kept at a temperature which would cause 3rd degree burns if it came into contact with the skin. Here is a good summary:

Myths and Facts of “The McDonald’s Hot Coffee Case” | Blog

[David_S1]

@Chuck Miller

Their wine is likely to have experienced similar temps over a similar timeframe during transit and/or sitting on a retail shelf.

This, been in plenty of wine stores in the summer when the temp was at least 75 or over. Not that I think it’s a good practice or understand why they wouldn’t try to control it better. Heck, K&L isn’t nice and chilly when it’s hot out.

[Mike_Francisco]

I didn’t stumble onto McCafeberserker.com by mistake did I?

[MChang]

The thing with the mcds case is that she initially just asked for her medical expenses to be paid and they refused…

[Bruce_Rudman]

I like it when people compare the McDonald’s coffee case to other scenarios. The link from Jay is how I recall it. Many hundreds of prior complaints of burns from the coffee and they decided to keep the temp. at 190 degrees so it was still hot 20 minutes after arrival at a destination. The punitive damages were based upon this recklessness.

As to the wine, and assuming there were protruding corks and seepage, did the insurer note these and try any of those wines? Too many variables to really know what the adjuster saw. I would be concerned if my cellar was at 75-80 degrees for multiple days but I agree with others it would take some time for the wine to warm up after the cooling unit died so the wine would likely have only been at the higher temperature for a much lesser amount of time. Unless I actually tried a wine and it tasted cooked I would probably not have filed a claim.

I have similar coverage through AIG (from the referral link on Cellartracker). It does give some peace of mind.

[Peter_Simpson]

Years ago I remember reading a post about a cooling unit failure when, IIRC, the unit ran out of freon but kept on running. The heat generated by the compressor and fan motors actually caused the cabinet to heat up far beyond the temperature of the room. The wine in the cabinet was a total loss.

[Chuck_Miller]

Peter, that can happen. But that’s not how I read the OP. Later, when it was stated that there was some signs of seepage and pushed corks, it leads me to think that the temp got much higher than the OP stated, but there is no way to know at this point.