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Great post!
Agreed. That was a great post Rachel! Especially this: "They’re not “settling” for beer - they’re choosing beer. "
Good point about increases in popularity - the producer can just ramp up production so there’s no price increase.
And great point about what really gets consumed overseas. The reason French wine consumption is falling is NOT because people aren’t drinking good wines, it’s because they’re not drinking as much of the swill that was produced in the Languedoc, which is basically like the lower-shelf supermarket wines in the US.
Americans shop by brand for pretty much everything. In Europe, they try to market wines by region, in the US and Australia by grape variety, but the big successes have been the wines that market their own brand. Nobody knows what’s in Apothic Red, but it’s selling. So beer fits into the brand consciousness of Americans far more easily than wine does. Yes, people will remember that they like Silver Oak or something like that, but that wine is pretty elite stuff and you’re going to remember the name of it if you’re paying those prices.
Wine is fine. Plenty of my customers are young. Certain wine regions face some long term issues, as younger people have less money and likely will for a long time, so even the introductory bottlings will be out of their reach. Money is part of the equation.
The flip side to that issue is that craft beer has exploded in a major, major way. The level of creativity in brewing is remarkable, while the nature of geeky wine limits a winemaker is some very notable ways. What we seem to love in wine involves a very limited touch from the person making it, and a pure expression of the soil. Beer people, for the most part, don’t care what farm grew the malt (hop origin matters - but that kind of addition would be anathema to most wine geeks) so long as it tastes good. A brewer is allowed to manipulate in very creative ways that, if done in wine, would offend both the authorities and wine geeks alike.
Put another way, a good brewery could take a stout and age it on coffee, cacao nibs, vanilla beans and chili peppers (I’m looking at a bottle of Prairie Artisan Ale’s BOMB! as I type this - amazing stuff, too) and this is not only acceptable, but encouraged by serious beer drinkers. A winery doing the same would be lucky to be called ‘Choco-Vine’ or Sangria and would be scorned by serious wine drinkers.
As someone that works in the distribution side of the business, I don’t think supermarkets are a good measuring stick for this. Many wineries do not want their wines sold in grocery stores because they don’t want their wine labelled as a “grocery brand.” This of course depends on the size of the winery.
I’ve always found this point interesting, and I’m glad you laid it out in such a lucid manner. It would be an interesting topic for its own thread.
A slightly-related point is that WBers have such a phobia about the slightest perception of oak in wine, yet many of the same people seem to delight in these microbrews that taste (because of hops, not wood, I’m told) like freshly cut boards from the sawmill. And it’s not that you can’t like a flavor in one beverage and dislike it in another – of course you can – but I’m still always struck by how big that difference is.
Such an interesting topic, and it’s a blast to read through all of the commentary thus far, and I gotta agree with a lot of it.
Looking at wine in nearly any supermarket is an exercise in brand development and awareness - and marketing dollars at play. Larger markets have little variability in what they bring in - it’s determined by ‘corporate’ and is ‘program’ driven. Larger distributors who ‘pay for space’ will get the majority of it.
Luckily, there are plenty of exceptions to this, espcially in larger cities. The wine selection at Whole Foods, for instance, tends to be a lot more diverse. Is it gonna be ‘sexy enough’ for many WB’ers? Depends on how specific you need to be on certain brands.
Beer is hot right now for soooo many damn reasons. Even though there can be some ‘pompousnes’ when it comes to beer, there is not nearly the same stigma as compared to wine. Anyone can drink beer and is ‘accepted’ - wine? No, you better know your stuff or you’ll be laughed at’ at your next party!
Though many on this board may disagree, wine’s marketing problem lies as much with consumers these days as it does with producers. So many consumers are ‘condescending’ of other consumers who like or drink ‘inferior’ wines in their minds. This has always been the case, but the number of ‘wine connoisseurs’ has risen precipitously in the past decade or so thanks to WS, ERP, wine boards like this, and other sources. With this has come the attitude that it isn’t cool to like or drink certain types of wines . . . and to me, that’s just wrong.
As an industry, the only way we’re going to grow in my opinion is to be more accepting of other’s tastes, whatever they may be. Not everyone is going to ‘get’ Rhys or Liquid Farm or Burgundy or ‘fill in the blank’. That’s a good thing for those who DO, because they’ll be more of it for them. But the whole concept of trying to understand why others ‘don’t get it’ is wrong to me.
Not everyone is going to understand the concept of spending more than $15 on a bottle of chardonnay for example (hijacking another thread) because to them, they don’t understand why the higher priced one is ‘better’ or gives them more enjoyment. And, most importantly, at least to me, that’s okay.
I know I’m rambling and I apologize for that, but it’s a topic near and dear to me, and one I ‘deal with’ every day in my tasting room. I come across folks who are ‘scared’ to tell me the types of wines they like because they feel ‘embarrassed’ to say they like things like ‘sweet wines’ or ‘buttery chardonnays’ because they think they will be looked down upon. Seriously . . . and if that’s happening in my little ole tasting room, believe me, it’s prevalent out there.
Cheers.
I think this is definitely true and I’ll go a step further. I think a lot of times, those of us who are hard core wine geeks want it both ways. We enjoy the geekiness and elitism of debating points of wine minutiae but then we also want wine to be this universal thing that every one drinks - so long as they drink it on our terms. I think in the wine world, we’re far less accepting of casual drinkers who don’t want to become experts but just want to drink wine.
True – and very well put.
Rachel,
You hit the nail on the head - at least as I see it. And as far as ‘don’t want to become experts’, I think that most either don’t think they can or just don’t give a crap about it. It’s a bottle of wine and they just want to enjoy it, right?
It’s always fun to try to step back from this board and others and see how ‘most folks’ see our industry and drink wine. It’s a whole different story than what is portrayed here - that’s for sure.
Kinda reminds me of my interaction with a number of ‘lurkers’ here on the board - they feel ‘intimidated’ to share information because they don’t want to be ‘wrong’ or feel they can’t add to the discussions. To me, that’s sad and too bad - wine is a universal beverage that each person enjoys in their own way - or at least that’s what I’d love to see it as . . .
Cheers!
Bingo!
For that matter, many craft breweries are now experimenting with oak, both used and new, to play with select beers. Without stigma. Or at least one that I’m aware of.
It is also worth noting that a lot of this experimentation is going on in the U.S.
I certainly understand the points being made here. And the phenomenon isn’t limited solely to wine. You’ll find it in music, clothing, cars, just about any material possession and nearly every consumable–anything where taste comes into play. For some reason, however, it is applied whole scale to all of wine. There’s still the “Oooh, wine” reaction. “Oooh, beer” just doesn’t happen.
Damn Rachel - you’re on a roll! Another great post!
In addition to the brand consciousness that we have, people are increasingly watching food shows and becoming “foodies”, a word that didn’t exist when I was a kid. Craft beer is more like the product of a chef than wine is. As people mentioned, with beer, if you add a little of this or a little of that and it’s all about the “craft”, whereas with wine we talk about “hands off” winemaking, and “manipulation” whatever those could possibly mean.
Wine is a little like cheese these days in terms of sales. Even an average supermarket will have a far better selection of cheese than one would have found 30 years ago. Customers like to see that selection of cheeses from around the world. But then they buy the Kraft aged cheddar that they’ve always liked. So to some degree, the big cheese selection becomes a marketing write-off to sell the Kraft stuff. The difference is that cheese is all-American so people don’t feel intimidated by it and condescension doesn’t really affect them.
Then there’s the whole idea of pairing, which IMHO is way over-rated. What goes with roast lamb? Barolo, Bordeaux, Rioja, Brunello, Cab or Merlot from Washington, California, South America, Italy and who knows where else, Malbec, Syrah from anywhere, Mourvedre. What about Aglianico, Zweigelt, Sagrantino, Xinomavro, Touriga Nacional, Casculho, Bonarda, Barbera, Pinot Noir, Zinfandel or any number of blends? Both young and aged.
Actually, all of them work pretty well. You get ten or twenty somms into a room and ask for recommendations and you get ten or twenty different recommendations. So now there’s another layer of complication. A somm is an intimidating person in any case - they come over to your table in a restaurant and it’s understood that they’re supposed to know more than you. OTOH, you know what you like and if they recommend something and you don’t like it, you feel inadequate. I’ve been in restaurants were the somm recommended something I had no interest in. When I made my pick, I got a condescending snort. I’ve also asked for ice buckets and was told that I have red wine so they didn’t want to give me an ice bucket. Someone who is a casual drinker is going to feel resentment at that kind of behavior and it isn’t going to make wine his or her favorite beverage.
Some of my favorite winemakers make wines that are like beer and I love them. I think they all hang out at Heater Allen. ![[snort.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/b/bdc3944606213c4dca6c1169cf0a166c8bc4f8c9.gif "snort.gif"){kind=small}
I had a taste for beer this weekend , its summer after all
I shop at Binnys in Chicago and they carry a good if not great wine selection and you can normally find anything except the list type wines, the same is true of their Whiskey and Bourbon selections ive bought most limited bourbons there of course it helps that being a regular i get a call when it comes in.
When i went shopping for craft beer i could not believe the choice, even two years ago there was maybe three aisles of craft beer with another four stacked with usual fizzy piss mass beers. Now its seven aisles of craft beer with fizzy piss relegated to a cornet. The options for aged, flavoured etc were staggering. I spent $100 on eight bottles but each was a bomber of distinctive very interesting beer. The poster who stated you dont worry about it being a hit or miss was exactly right, if a $12 bomber sounds good but is not to my taste i still drink it and make a mental nite to avoid if i buy a high end wine like the $90 chablis that disappointed then you feel cheated. I think this could influence my buying decisions to carry on with known high quality lists like Kosta Browne, Saxum, Monte bello etc but to cut back on lexperimenting and buy more beer. Another poster mentioned that wines are very subtle but beer makers can do anything and as sucj the flavour profiles can be fantastic. I had the first two bottles last night, one was a dogfish noble rot flavoured with grape must and the second a ommegeng three philosphers both if these were fantastic and at 10abv the two beers easily replaced two bottles of wine at 30% of the cost
Now i have been drinking three philosphers for years but i think in say five years its gone from $8.99 to $10.99 which is basically inflation. Kosta has close to doubled as have a lot of other wines.
I think beer and Bourbon are a genuine threat to wine which is pricing itself out of the market, i can buy the best beer for around $12 and the best Bourbons for around $100 these represent significant savings against $1000 for a first growth or $100s for a good Napa cab
And how is this cheaper than wine? A typical beer person knocks down 2-3 bottles per sitting, so you’re if you are replacing wine instead of craft beer you’re talking about purchasing a $25-38 bottle of wine, where you can find a LOT of enjoyment in that range. I don’t buy the argument that beer is cheaper, and I think it is more a personal choice (and a lack of options or understanding) more than anything else.
Well let’s not forget that many of the craft beers are now sold in 22 oz bottles (why that size, btw?!?! anyone know?). This is not that far off from the 25.3 oz that are in a 750 ml bottle of wine. And as some of these craft beers are pushing ABV’s of 10% and up, it IS similar in many more ways than ever to consuming a bottle of wine . . .
Just another datapoint.
Cheers!
Let’s not forget something important in the equation - you will very infrequently here the words ‘beer’ and ‘pompous’ or ‘beer’ and ‘pretentious’ used in combination, with each other, but ‘wine’ and ‘pompous’ and ‘wine’ and ‘pretentious’ are used way too often for my liking.
Yep, there certainly are exceptions to this rule, but beer is seen as ‘more accessible’ than wine, even at the higher end craft side.
Cheers.
Is this a bad thing? The alternative is to sort through thousands of products in EVERY category. Who has time for that?
When marketers attack (wine in this case):