Does VA Have A Positive Role To Play With Red Burgundy?

Michael,

The challenge, as others have said I believe, is that everyone has a different threshold for detecting volatile acidity. Some are very sensitive to it and it detracts from the other aspects of the wine; others are not able to detect it at all and therefore it’s not a problem for them at all.

It can not only show itself aromatically but also taste as well - when VA is high, I tend to get a bit of an acrid finish in the wine. In small amounts, when not detected, it can not only lift the aromatics but also provide a touch of perceived sweetness as well.

Cheers

As others have mentioned, Volatile Acidity is not the same as Ethyl Acetate, the chemical the smells like nail polish. It is possible for a wine to have a high level of VA without any EA; on the other hand, if a wine shows EA, it also has higher levels of VA.

Cheers

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Spot on, Adam.

A funny side story - a number of years ago at Hospice du Rhone, I went over to try one of the blends from a well known Paso producer. The winemaker poured me a sample after he had just opened the bottle, and I’m not sure he had a chance to try it. I walked away from the table to allow others at his crowded table to try some, and noticed the wine had a very high level of VA, at least to me. I had a few other winemakers smell it, not telling them which wine it was, and they all agreed with me. I brought it back over to the winemaker, not saying anything other than making sure it was okay, and he smelled and said ‘perfect’. To me, this is a sense of ‘house palate’ - or someone who may have a very high threshold for detecting it.

Cheers

No, I’ve understood there’s never acetone in wine. And ethyl acetate is used in both nail polish and nail polish remover, because it’s a solvent that dries up pretty fast. That’s why I don’t really see the point describing wines as smelling like “nail polish remover” if “nail polish” does the same thing with fewer words. [wink.gif]

But it is. I really doesn’t make sense, but “volatile acidity” as a term doesn’t refer to acetic acid only, but is a catch-all term for acetic acid, ethyl acetate, isoamyl acetate etc. - even though acetic acid is actually the only true acid in this group of chemicals (well, there can be also some carbonic acid, sulfuric acid, etc). I know there’s been arguments over this use of term going back and forth for a long time. For example most labs etc. use VA only for true acids, but most writers and people ITB include other non-acid compounds with the term.

It is possible for a wine to have a high level of VA without any EA; on the other hand, if a wine shows EA, it also has higher levels of VA.

I assume you use VA here for acetic acid? It’s definitely true that a wine can have high levels of VA without any EA, although I’ve understood that’s quite rare, as acetobacter produces EA at the same time as it produces acetic acid. And the less oxygen there is, the higher is the ratio of EA to acetic acid - only if the wine is getting badly oxidized, does acetobacter produce acetic acid without any noticeable amounts of EA.

Furthermore, a wine can show lots of EA without much acetic acid, as EA is one of the major esters produced by common yeasts during normal fermentation and different strains produce different amounts of EA. Some strains can produce lots of EA during the fermentation, yet the wine might still have only negligible amount of acetic acid.

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Why can’t P&G make some “things” to add to a corked wine? Could be a business opportunity.

Ok, so what do you want us to call it? Just so were on the correct Forsbergian wavelength.

Which one?

I’ll give the same answer as with any descriptors: Don’t be vague about something specific. Don’t be overly specific when that’s not accurate. So, if it smells/tastes vinegar-y, say so. If it smells like nail polish, say so. If it’s a less specific sense of volatile acidic compounds, say so. If it smells like nail polish and tastes vinegar-y, say so. No need to guess at what you should say, just describe it as you perceive it.

Well, that’s what I’ve been doing always.

That still doesn’t change the fact that in wine speak, “VA” is a common descriptor for ethyl acetate, isoamyl acetate, acetic acid and other related compounds, and people are going to use that term, no matter if the compound is an acid or not.

I, too, can say that there’s a “tiny bit of volatile lift” or “a whiff of lifted VA” in the nose if I can pick something that might be either some of the acetates or acetic acid or something else, but can’t make it out which compound is in the question. However, whenever I can make it out, I also say it.

I also wish people would write more verbose and accurate tasting notes and not just overtly vague descriptions which don’t really give anything useful about the wine, but can’t really see that happening.

I am neither a winemaker or scientist but to try to answer the question here is my simple take. I read in an article that “The principal source of acetic acid post- fermentation in stored wines is attributed to growth of acetic acid bacteria and certain lactic acid bacterial species.”

My guess is VA COULD have an interesting flavor in the proper quantity in a YOUNG wine. But my guess is this bacteria only increases in time in the bottle and often is one of the factors that worsens bottles over time.

Regarding burgundy my guess is the lighter a wine is the more the VA will influence the flavor. Just like they say in beer a Pilsner is more difficult to mask imperfections than a bigger more flavorful ale. I would imagine a light burgundy has more difficulty having VA be a positive contribution vs a big CDP or Bordeaux.

Yes … VA in red burg is “complexity” while in Cali Cab it’s evidence of overly hot weather and shitty new world winemaking :slight_smile:

The answer is yes, then no.

Right— VA and EA are linked because ethyl acetate is the result of the estérification of acetic acid. So you can’t have high levels of EA without initial high levels of VA, but as you note Otto, levels of the corresponding ester produced during fermentation (by yeast) are also an important part of the equation. This often is forgotten.

EA is more potent aromatically and therefore masks VA — and for my palate, I typically I can taste VA before it appears on the nose; and sure, sometimes this can help a wine but obviously as a wine maker I would rather have other more stable forms of natural acidity (mainly tartaric acid, and malic converted to lactic acid). EA on the other hand is mostly on the nose for me, but also affects my palate and never in a positive way.

One interesting note and perhaps the reason Pinot Noir is vulnerable (re the OP on burgundy reds): Esterification in wine is very sensitive to pH because it is an acid-catalyzed reaction. Cool climate Pinot Noir will typically have much lower pHs than Bordeaux style, Rhône Style wines, and therefore EA would potentially occur very quickly. And obviously we are focusing on red wine making which is typically more prone to high VA due to more oxygen exposure* during fermentation and élevage (in barrel), but man, I had a high VA Gruner last month so not sure what happened there! (*Acetic acid is mostly from “wild” bacteria and yeasts that require oxygen. During élevage, this is why we top barrels on very tight schedules! This is where large scale wineries can lose quality— they have so many barrels and too few staff potentially and will top barrels on a monthly schedule compared to our smaller, craft practices of 7-14 days depending on the time of year. Reserve osmosis can be used to remove acetic acid but it also destroys the wine matrix…. That’s another story.)

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