Do you need to drink lesser wines to appreciate the great ones?

[Sarah_Kirschbaum]

Arguing with Yaacov always makes me want to bare my teeth in one way or another. (Love 'ya YB)

we actually agree on this one! the trip up is the use of “lesser” and “appreciate” they’re both too loaded and undermine the fact that there are in fact benchmarks or standards for these things.

Hope it’s occasionally in a smile!

Agree with you on that, too - both the loaded and that standards parts.

[Anton_D]

You should already know that white truffle served at a high-end establishment is far better than white truffle oil you get on everyday fries.

How would you know?

Not sure if serious, but Your Truffle Oil Contains No Real Truffles

Not serious. What I meant was, do you only eat great white truffles, or have you experienced lesser fungi and products?

How do you automatically know without a context?

[Cris_Whetstone]

I think the answer depends on what you mean by the word appreciate.

Two of the three dictionary definitions (Merriam-Webster) are: “to grasp the nature, worth, quality, or significance of” and “to judge with heightened perception or understanding: to be fully aware of” (my italics). Under those definitions, then I think yes, absolutely. These definitions include elements of understanding and context, beyond simple enjoyment, which cannot come without comparison and broader expereince.

The other definition, however, is simply “to value or admire highly.” Under that definition, probably not. You can value and admire DRC even if it’s the only wine you’ve ever tasted, based solely on your isolated enjoyment of it.

I think the first two are much more deeply meaningful, though, and certainly support my experience. I find great joy in the learning aspects of this wine hobby, and have often advocated paths and approaches that encourage new collectors to explore in many ways. I am positive my own joy in great wine has sensory, emotional and intellectual components, none of which could be as impactful without context and broad experience.

This pretty well covers it for me. Especially the last paragraph.

[Brian_G_r_a_f_s_t_r_o_m]

No. But greater context leads to greater understanding/appreciation.

[Michael_S_Monie]

For me, the disparity in quality is most evident with Bordeaux. After you have had great (dare I say profound bottles) it’s hard to be satisfied with the merely good ones. Of course since I’ve never had a great red Burgundy, I’m only speculating, but I wouldn’t surprised if the disparity is even more apparent.

[Jayson_Cohen]

Yes. I think we should have a National wB Day of Appreciation where we get together regionally and chug through a few bottles of Barefoot, 2 Buck Chuck, Apothic Red and Meiomi to keep us honest.

My father-in-law poured me a glass of Meiomi PN over the holidays. I’ve been kept honest.

[dsimmons]

Appreciate, sure … I believe that without the perspective of tasting a broad spectrum of wine is would be possible to “appreciate” if you only drank top tier wines. However without the perspective of tasting a broad spectrum there would be no way to “value” top tier wines.

[lleichtman]

This is a tough question. Does drinking bad wine make you appreciate good wine more? Does drinking good wine make drinking average wines worse? From my perspective, maybe. I have had plenty of bad wine, usually brought to a party by someone who browsed at Trader Joes. I know the difference but then I started with drinking mediocre wine, Liebfraumilch, Mateus, Chianti in fiascos, etc. so drinking more bad wine would not be instructive. Drinking great wines does spoil you to the average ones though.

[jeffruggels]

foe me this is a no brainer. I absolutely have a better appreciation for wines at all quality levels because i have enjoyed a wide range over the years

[Anton_D]

For me, the disparity in quality is most evident with Bordeaux. After you have had great (dare I say profound bottles) it’s hard to be satisfied with the merely good ones. Of course since I’ve never had a great red Burgundy, I’m only speculating, but I wouldn’t surprised if the disparity is even more apparent.

Question: if you had started your wine journey with only “profound” bottles, would they have still been “profound?” If you only continued on with “profound” wines, would they have remained “profound?” Did the wine’s profundity require a context, or would it have been equally “profound” on your 21st birthday as your first taste of wine?

That’s the question I see.

Would the greatest sex of your life (or the greatest pizza) be as ‘profound’ without the ‘lesser’ sex (or pizza?)

[Michael_S_Monie]

For me, the disparity in quality is most evident with Bordeaux. After you have had great (dare I say profound bottles) it’s hard to be satisfied with the merely good ones. Of course since I’ve never had a great red Burgundy, I’m only speculating, but I wouldn’t surprised if the disparity is even more apparent.

Question: if you had started your wine journey with only “profound” bottles, would they have still been “profound?” If you only continued on with “profound” wines, would they have remained “profound?” Did the wine’s profundity require a context, or would it have been equally “profound” on your 21st birthday as your first taste of wine?

That’s the question I see.

Would the greatest sex of your life (or the greatest pizza) be as ‘profound’ without the ‘lesser’ sex (or pizza?)

I would guess that most enthusiast remember their first “ah ha” moment with wine. And yes I would assume that for the majority this recognition was largely due to what had preceded. Now I don’t assume that the awakening of how much better this is than what I’ve had previously is necessarily because the wine was profound, just significantly more rewarding than the earlier wines. If the first wine to have ever touch my lips had been an 89 Haut Brion, and considering that I was actually paying attention, not just drinking, I probably would not have thought of it as profound, but more likely damn good juice. Having had so many Bordeaux prior to when I finally did have an 89 Haut Brion, my perception was that of profundity. Assuming that all the bottles of 89 Haut Brion that I might subsequently drink were of the same caliber of that one that I had, I can’t imagine considering them anything less than profound.

[jeffruggels]

Anton - cannot opine on the bordeaux question as I did not start at profound and only stay there.

re: sex and pizza, no they would not

[Howard_Cooper]

A few thoughts.

1. Not anymore. I have been drinking wine for a long time and probably don’t need to try any more lesser wines to appreciate the great ones. Looking at the word do - if it is interpreted to mean present and future tense - the answer now is no.

2. How do I avoid lesser wines? I mean, most of us live in the real world. We go to parties with friends who are not wine geeks. We go to dinner at restaurants where the people we are with are not wine geeks, they want us to pick a bottle of wine from the wine list and the wine list either has nothing even approaching good or nothing within a price range you would pay at the restaurant approaching good. I have had experiences where we were at a friend’s house and they bring out a bottle of wine “because they know I like wine” and the wine was a cheap wine that probably was opened several months ago. Avoiding lesser wines and even poor wines is really difficult. And, I am not even discussing expensive lesser wines.

3. To me, there are two types of great wines. First, the big names - first growth Bordeauxs, grand cru Burgs, Ridge Monte Bello, etc. Second, there is the really good simpler wine that is just a joy to drink. For example, Hudelot-Noellat Bourgogne Rouge, Bernard Moreau Bourgogne Blanc, Cotat Rose, etc., etc., etc. To me, it is easier for a less experienced wine lover to love the first category because they are big and rich and complex, etc. It is simple to see the greatness in these wines. It takes more experience I believe to see the great bottle of a simpler wine that just really hits the spot and is an excellent value and puts to shame all the similarly priced wines that provide a fraction (if that) of the enjoyment of the wines I often love. That is really where all the junk out there really makes you appreciate the art that went into the great, simpler wine.

[Anton_D]

For me, the disparity in quality is most evident with Bordeaux. After you have had great (dare I say profound bottles) it’s hard to be satisfied with the merely good ones. Of course since I’ve never had a great red Burgundy, I’m only speculating, but I wouldn’t surprised if the disparity is even more apparent.

Question: if you had started your wine journey with only “profound” bottles, would they have still been “profound?” If you only continued on with “profound” wines, would they have remained “profound?” Did the wine’s profundity require a context, or would it have been equally “profound” on your 21st birthday as your first taste of wine?

That’s the question I see.

Would the greatest sex of your life (or the greatest pizza) be as ‘profound’ without the ‘lesser’ sex (or pizza?)

I would guess that most enthusiast remember their first “ah ha” moment with wine. And yes I would assume that for the majority this recognition was largely due to what had preceded. Now I don’t assume that the awakening of how much better this is than what I’ve had previously is necessarily because the wine was profound, just significantly more rewarding than the earlier wines. If the first wine to have ever touch my lips had been an 89 Haut Brion, and considering that I was actually paying attention, not just drinking, I probably would not have thought of it as profound, but more likely damn good juice. Having had so many Bordeaux prior to when I finally did have an 89 Haut Brion, my perception was that of profundity. Assuming that all the bottles of 89 Haut Brion that I might subsequently drink were of the same caliber of that one that I had, I can’t imagine considering them anything less than profound.

We agree!

[Michael_S_Monie]

If you want to get into the whole “if a tree falls in the forest” thing, and I assume that you don’t, can a wine have intrinsic profundity or is it always contingent on the palate of the imbiber?

[Marcus_Dean]

A few thoughts.

1. Not anymore. I have been drinking wine for a long time and probably don’t need to try any more lesser wines to appreciate the great ones. Looking at the word do - if it is interpreted to mean present and future tense - the answer now is no.

2. How do I avoid lesser wines? I mean, most of us live in the real world. We go to parties with friends who are not wine geeks. We go to dinner at restaurants where the people we are with are not wine geeks, they want us to pick a bottle of wine from the wine list and the wine list either has nothing even approaching good or nothing within a price range you would pay at the restaurant approaching good. I have had experiences where we were at a friend’s house and they bring out a bottle of wine “because they know I like wine” and the wine was a cheap wine that probably was opened several months ago. Avoiding lesser wines and even poor wines is really difficult. And, I am not even discussing expensive lesser wines.

3. To me, there are two types of great wines. First, the big names - first growth Bordeauxs, grand cru Burgs, Ridge Monte Bello, etc. Second, there is the really good simpler wine that is just a joy to drink. For example, Hudelot-Noellat Bourgogne Rouge, Bernard Moreau Bourgogne Blanc, Cotat Rose, etc., etc., etc. To me, it is easier for a less experienced wine lover to love the first category because they are big and rich and complex, etc. It is simple to see the greatness in these wines. It takes more experience I believe to see the great bottle of a simpler wine that just really hits the spot and is an excellent value and puts to shame all the similarly priced wines that provide a fraction (if that) of the enjoyment of the wines I often love. That is really where all the junk out there really makes you appreciate the art that went into the great, simpler wine.

Really good post Howard, Thank you for your articulation

[Dan_Kravitz]

This whole board, if not the whole industry, is based on the presumption that there are greater and lesser wines, and that you will experience both.

Dan Kravitz

[Howard_Cooper]

A few thoughts.

1. Not anymore. I have been drinking wine for a long time and probably don’t need to try any more lesser wines to appreciate the great ones. Looking at the word do - if it is interpreted to mean present and future tense - the answer now is no.

2. How do I avoid lesser wines? I mean, most of us live in the real world. We go to parties with friends who are not wine geeks. We go to dinner at restaurants where the people we are with are not wine geeks, they want us to pick a bottle of wine from the wine list and the wine list either has nothing even approaching good or nothing within a price range you would pay at the restaurant approaching good. I have had experiences where we were at a friend’s house and they bring out a bottle of wine “because they know I like wine” and the wine was a cheap wine that probably was opened several months ago. Avoiding lesser wines and even poor wines is really difficult. And, I am not even discussing expensive lesser wines.

3. To me, there are two types of great wines. First, the big names - first growth Bordeauxs, grand cru Burgs, Ridge Monte Bello, etc. Second, there is the really good simpler wine that is just a joy to drink. For example, Hudelot-Noellat Bourgogne Rouge, Bernard Moreau Bourgogne Blanc, Cotat Rose, etc., etc., etc. To me, it is easier for a less experienced wine lover to love the first category because they are big and rich and complex, etc. It is simple to see the greatness in these wines. It takes more experience I believe to see the great bottle of a simpler wine that just really hits the spot and is an excellent value and puts to shame all the similarly priced wines that provide a fraction (if that) of the enjoyment of the wines I often love. That is really where all the junk out there really makes you appreciate the art that went into the great, simpler wine.

Really good post Howard, Thank you for your articulation

[Jayson_Cohen]

A few thoughts.

1. Not anymore. I have been drinking wine for a long time and probably don’t need to try any more lesser wines to appreciate the great ones. Looking at the word do - if it is interpreted to mean present and future tense - the answer now is no.

2. How do I avoid lesser wines? I mean, most of us live in the real world. We go to parties with friends who are not wine geeks. We go to dinner at restaurants where the people we are with are not wine geeks, they want us to pick a bottle of wine from the wine list and the wine list either has nothing even approaching good or nothing within a price range you would pay at the restaurant approaching good. I have had experiences where we were at a friend’s house and they bring out a bottle of wine “because they know I like wine” and the wine was a cheap wine that probably was opened several months ago. Avoiding lesser wines and even poor wines is really difficult. And, I am not even discussing expensive lesser wines.

3. To me, there are two types of great wines. First, the big names - first growth Bordeauxs, grand cru Burgs, Ridge Monte Bello, etc. Second, there is the really good simpler wine that is just a joy to drink. For example, Hudelot-Noellat Bourgogne Rouge, Bernard Moreau Bourgogne Blanc, Cotat Rose, etc., etc., etc. To me, it is easier for a less experienced wine lover to love the first category because they are big and rich and complex, etc. It is simple to see the greatness in these wines. It takes more experience I believe to see the great bottle of a simpler wine that just really hits the spot and is an excellent value and puts to shame all the similarly priced wines that provide a fraction (if that) of the enjoyment of the wines I often love. That is really where all the junk out there really makes you appreciate the art that went into the great, simpler wine.

Really good post Howard, Thank you for your articulation

Yes. Nice post. But, Howard, you accidentally put Cotat Rose in the wrong category.

[Anton_D]

Man, I think ‘lesser wines’ can be awesome.

Does anybody else enjoy seeing what kind of work a favorite wine maker managed to come up with in down vintages?

I love seeing what technique and skill can do with off vintages or limited resources. I don’t need every year to be vintage and wine of the century to give me loads of entertainment and enjoyment.

Confession: Ultra sorting has made wine a little less interesting, to me. There is a sameness that can be a drag.