Tom will not like it but I agree with you totally. 
Of course one has to be polite and end with IMHO.
Stony Hill is the only domestic Riesling on my wine wall of fame.
+1
I’ve never had anything in this country that can touch the best of Germany. Would love to, but have not.
As for where there is some chance to make great Riesling… I hear there are some slate soils on the Sonoma Coast, which gets me interested. But even if they do, how can they get the flavors Germany does at 8% alcohol? That is their secret weapon. Sonoma Coast, despite its low temps, routinely hits 14% alcohol on everything in sight. So maybe someday we can reach Austrian level, but I don’t know if anyone will ever touch Germany.
As much as I love Germany, and believe me - I LOVE Germany. I don’t think that’s the style that people in California should even try to attempt at emulating. You cannot get that pristine acidity plus the luscious mouthfeel with our climate. You don’t see those style of whites made in Tuscany or Bordeaux, why try to do that in Napa, Sonoma, Monterey, or Santa Cruz?
The top producers mentioned in this thread (mainly referring to Smith Madrone and Stony Hill) do a magnificent job with Riesling in Napa. For a variety that is much maligned in California, you have to commend the Smith Brothers and the McCrea’s for not only keeping their vines (and in the Smith’s case; replanting), but continually producing very good representations of the potential that Riesling still has in the valley. The best thing about their wines? They have little to do with Germany.
I just came across an article on California Riesling from the SF Chronicle dated 2004. It’s a pretty good read that has quotes from the major players in California Riesling.
Joseph Phelps, when Walter Schug was winemaker, also made some great late harvest Rieslings, with Napa fruit. They even made some stellar Scheurebe. Perhaps not quite up there with the very greatest Germans, but I’d still say world class.
True. The problem there (and its the same with some of Dick Arrowood’s creations at CSJ and Arrowood) is that they are no longer made.
FWIW, we’ve put in some riesling in the coolest sections of Coastview. I think its pretty obvious that we will never get anything in the German style much less compete with the greatest German examples, but I expect in a few years to be producing some pretty compelling wines in our own special way. Also had a lengthy discussion on the virtues of Liebfraumilch with my in-laws this weekend. Apparently there was a time in recent memory when you could get it in all the best restaurants in the midwest… so we’ve progressed.
John,
Thanks for the link to the article - wonderfully written and still true to this day. . . .
I can’t speak to dry California rieslings, but having drunk many, many of the late harvest ones for the 70s and 80s (Ch. St. Jean, Freemark Abbey, Phelps, and many others) in the late 90s and early 2000s, they were nice but nowhere near as complex as their German counterparts. They tended to have a marked orange flavor when old (you can always spot them blind), which was pleasant but ultimately kind of one-dimensional. These wines went out of fashion and I have less experience with more recent ones.
I love Navarro’s wines, but have no experience with them aged.
It was accepted wisdom in the 70s that botrytis didn’t occur naturally in California, so I think the fruit may have been inoculated with botrytis in the vineyard. Perhaps that had something to do with the consistent flavor profile you experience with the wines of that era.
The closest thing to a German late harvest riesling I’ve ever experienced was, of all things, a Rosemount Hunter Valley TBA from 1982, which was stunning. Evidently they made this just that one year. A friend who contacted the winery 10 years to see if there had been later releases was told the staff had no knowledge of it. Which is a pity since it was a profound wine. I was lucky enough to have it several times as several German-loving wino friends in NYC had discovered it and stocked up.
Yep. Having tasted some of that old Scheurebe due to Eric’s generosity I am sad that it is not made anymore. Terrific wines.
Those old Arrowood, CsJ, Freemark Abbey and other dessert wines are good, but lack the requisite acidity to ever be great IMO, bit age made them more interesting. California is just missing soil, climate, and acidity to be Germany, other than that they are pretty good, but still 2nd to WA State.
Frankly there is nothing wrong with being different, no one outside BDX, Burgundy, CdP makes wines like that, same varietals, different expression, embrace diversity, it makes this world more interesting.
I was pleasantly surprised by the couple of vintages of Chateau Montelena Riesling that I’ve tried. Not Germany, but not bad either. That can’t be made up in Calistoga, right?
Also, I’d be curious to find out which Oregon and WA Rieslinge you all like.
Cheers,
Bill
Bill,
Eroica
Efeste Evergreen Vnyd.
CSM Dry Riesling and Cold Creek
Poets Leap
Pacific Rim Wallula
Owen Roe Dubrul
Bookwalter
Januik Bacchus
In Oregon, Kings Ridge makes a good Riesling from Dick Eraths old vineyard he planted back in the 70’s. Don’t know of many others.
Another producer who did very well with late harvest riesling was Long Vineyards. Some of theirs from the mid and late 90s and early 2000s were excellent, though they varied widely in quality year to year. The were far more interesting than most, though not quite up to German quality levels.
Not quite, John. It was widely thought/the folklore that Calif had too low of humidity to sustain the growth of BotrytisCinerea/Edelfaule. But the Wente’s
recognized it on their ArroyoSeco Riesling in '71 and made a Spatlese. Then in the rainy '72 vintage, they made an Auslese. Both went on to have grand & glorious
lives, going strong at 20 yrs of age. I would call them, at old age, world-class…but I guess that can’t really be.
In the '73 vintage, the FreemarkAbbey vnyd that grew their JohannisbergRiesling developed an infestation of rot and they left the grapes out there to die.
A visiting German winemaker was walking the vnyd w/ ChuckCarpy and declared that the grapes were infected by BotrytisCinerea, so they we ahead and made their
first Edelwein…the first Calif BA level of Riesling. Next year they did the same thing and made the EdelweinGold…the first Calif TBA level of wine. I would call them,
both young & at old age, world-class…but I guess that can’t really be. Since then, Calif BA (Botrytis Affected, officially) and TBA (Totally Botrytis Affected, officially)
have been fairly regularly made.
Before that, in the '60’s, MyronNightengale, at CrestaBlanca, made a few botrytis Semillons by laying the grapes out on plastic trays in the winery, spraying them w/
a botrytis solution, covering them w/ poly tarps, and letting the botrytis grow in a high humidity environment. Obviously expensive.
I know of no attempts in Calif to make a botrytis wine by innoculating w/ botrytis in the vnyd, though it’s not unknown, if a botrytis infection gets started in the vnyd,
to turn on the overhead sprinklers to give the botrytis a boost.
I’ve had two pretty incredible Calif Rieslings. Several were made by DavidBruce in the early '70’s from his Estate Riesling. Barrel frmtd/barrel aged, around 14.5% alc.
Some of the best Calif Chards I’ve had.
In the early '90’s, BobLindquist/JimClendennen/JimAdelman took the last crop of Riesling off BienNacido and made their ThumbsUp WhiteRiesling. Barrel frmtd/barrel age…
one of the best Calif Sauternes I’ve had. At 20 yrs of age, it had developed a lot of old German TBA character, but still noticible oak.
Both I’d label as “world-class”…but I guess that can’t really be.
Tom
Tom,
In all fairness, the question was “Are there …”, not “Were there …”. That distinction made, do you think there are CA wineries presently producing Riesling(s) that you would consider “world-class”?
Since the dehydration of the grapes by the botrytis concentrates both the sugar and the acids, I don’t think this is really true, Kris. I recall some of those early Phelps/StJean/Arrowood
BA’s/TBA’s had pretty high acids, up around 1.0 if I recollect correctly (sometimes I don’t…got nuthin’ to do w/ old age).
OTOH…if you start w/ grapes that were infected by botrytis at 19 Brix (say Germany) and grapes that were infected by botrytis at 26 Brix (say Calif) and then makes a TBA when they
reach 32 Brix…which will be the better TBA??? Obviously…I guess…the German one.
Tom
Guess that was a subtlity that I didn’t pick up on.
Tom
+1 Stony Hill
+1 Smith Madrone
Thanks to all. Great information on this thread, never dreamed that it would get this much attention.
Shows a lot of love for the varietal and some respect for a few hardy CA producers. May the quest continue!