Do Wines From Warm Vintages Age?

[lleichtman]

I drink and taste a fair amount of these wines, and while it is just my taste, I do not find the wines from these years, unbalanced, or overripe, with the exception of 2003, which produced a limited number of extraordinary wines, and several wines that are already at peak, and wines that have probably slipped past their peak tasting period. It is not the high alcohol that is the culprit, it is the low acidity and the extreme heat and drought. In parts of some vineyards, I know that there were days that hit 128 degrees for a few days! Now, that is hot.[/quote]


Could you please post a link to that because that would have been far and away the hottest temperature ever reported in France.

[lleichtman]

Dennis… Do you think I make this stuff up? No, it was not over all of Bordeaux, but in parts of vineyards in the Northern Medoc, it reached 129 F, 54 C at its peak in the afternoon for a few days in August! All the workers just sat in the cellars. Have you looked at how many people died in heat related deaths in August 2003? It is over 10,000![/quote]

Hottest temperature ever reported in France was 112.3 in August 12 2003 in Conqueyrac, Gard France. Source Weather Underground. Things are hinkey enough around here without making things up.

[Theodore_Anderson]

@lleichtman

Hottest temperature ever reported in France was 112.3 in August 12 2003 in Conqueyrac, Gard France. Source Weather Underground. Things are hinkey enough around here without making things up.

Yeah, 129 would be on the short list for highest temperatures ever recorded on earth, I don’t buy that at all.

[Soren_R_Nielsen]

I believe these 128F+ are temperatures “in the vinyards” as in the sun heated areas.
Official surface air temps, are always measured in the shade (white painted shelter) 1.25-2m above ground.
A sun baked hillside with no winds, can reach amazingly high temps during the early afternoons.

Fact : The official highest recorded ground air temperature in the world, is now 56.7 C (134 F), which was measured on 10 July 1913 at Greenland Ranch, Death Valley, California, USA. -In the shade !!

Kind regards, Soren.

[Chris_Seiber]

@NoahR

But Jeff, in an age of average EtOH in the 14% range in Bordeaux, whereas the average ABV in those great vintages of yesteryear was closer to 12%, doesnt that beg another question?

This is an interesting question. I think Jeff Leve is almost certainly right that Bordeaux from relatively warmer/riper vintages in the 20th century tended to produce great wines and wines that have aged and developed well. This has probably tended to be true in Piedmont, Napa, Rhone and other places as well over the last century.

But if vineyard practices, technology, harvest decisions etc. have now shifted the baseline upward considerably, it might be a different question going forward whether the ripest, warmest and sunniest vintages will produce the most ageworthy wines. Maybe a vintage like 2007 in California. 2007 in the Rhone, or 2009 in Bordeaux would have resulted in exceptional and ageworthy wines 40 years ago, but maybe today a more moderate weather year would be more likely to do that?

I’m not saying I know that to be the case, but it’s an interesting question.

[Ray.Tuppa_sch]

@Jeff Leve

@Dennis Borczon

@Jeff Leve

… with the exception of 2003, … In parts of some vineyards, I know that there were days that hit 128 degrees for a few days! Now, that is hot.

Come on now,128 degrees? Farenheit? Maybe on the surface of a parking lot at one of the chateau. But for air temp to be that hot don’t you have to be in something like Death Valley?

Dennis… Do you think I make this stuff up? No, it was not over all of Bordeaux, but in parts of vineyards in the Northern Medoc, it reached 129 F, 54 C at its peak in the afternoon for a few days in August! All the workers just sat in the cellars. Have you looked at how many people died in heat related deaths in August 2003? It is over 10,000!

It has never reached close to 129F anywhere in France, never mind for multiple days.

[Mel_Knox]

Acc to wikipedia, around 14,000 people died in France due to the heat in 2003. There is hot and then there is HOT! The vines tend to shut down when the temps reach over 102 F, so there is no flavor development.
Plus it was a very dry summer.

I don’t think one can generalize well here, but I think a lot has to do with the acidity in the wine and that is my worry about 2005 in Burgundy.

In California we are used to warm vintages and know what to do. A friend of mine was working at a winery in Pomerol in 1989. The owner of the neighboring winery had must weights of over 14 degrees potential alcohol but he still wanted to chaptalise. He should have been thinking about tartaric.

[Michael_S_Monie]

The thread seems to have migrated to how warm is hot and how hot is really hot, as well as temperatures in Bordeaux. I’ll use Barolo: 2004-cool, 2005-hot, 2006-cool, 2007-hot, 2008-cool, 2009-hot, 2010-cool, 2011-hot. I frequently see references to how these alternating vintages will or will not develop with age as well as their longevity. And also the relative quality of the wines from respective vintages upon release, with the wines from cooler vintages almost always rating higher.

[larry_schaffer]

First off, it’s been heavily reported that, regardless of what the ‘stated’ alcohols were back in the day, many of those Bordeaux mentioned from decades ago were much riper than stated . . .I think all Bordeaux that make it to this country stated with 12.0 or 12.5 abv until recently . . .

To me, the real question is whether or not many modern winea, which are more apt to be ‘manipulated’, will stand the test of time . . .

Cheers

[Dennis_Borczon]

@Jeff Leve

@Dennis Borczon

@Jeff Leve

Come on now,128 degrees? Farenheit? Maybe on the surface of a parking lot at one of the chateau. But for air temp to be that hot don’t you have to be in something like Death Valley?

Dennis… Do you think I make this stuff up? No, it was not over all of Bordeaux, but in parts of vineyards in the Northern Medoc, it reached 129 F, 54 C at its peak in the afternoon for a few days in August! All the workers just sat in the cellars. Have you looked at how many people died in heat related deaths in August 2003? It is over 10,000!

People die every August in Europe. “Heat related” is a broad term. I can guarantee that if it were 128 degrees air temp in August in France for any period of time, there would be a LOT more dead people in Europe. Let’s not blow a lot more hot air around this topic than necessary. Media tend to blow a lot of things out of proportion with weather events!

To bring this back to wine, just drank a 2003 Roger Perrin CdP Reserve Vieilles Vignes last evening with a couple of marinated lamb chops. It shows no signs of falling apart, but has some distinct browning in the rim, and after 24 hours there is a pruney, amarone like quality to the wine that was not really apparent in the first day. Not particularly hot, but clearly this is carrying a fair bit of alcohol. Would not trust this to age much more. It is actually hilarious to look at the alcohol content, it reads “Red Rhone dessert wine 14.1-16% alcohol”. Must be importer label as the official alcohol reading is 15% on the domaine label. Time to line up any 2003 rhones I have left to consume soon, clearly sometimes too much heat does not bode well for a long aging wine.

[Soren_R_Nielsen]

I don’t know how the farmers in France measures the temperatures in the vinyards, as Jeff noted…
If they place the thermometer on the ground (soil), or places it in/on a sun turned cluster ?
But they surely don’t use the official air temp. method.
They measure the temp. in the sun (where the grapes are).

No meaning in comparing these local temperature peaks in the sunshine, to the official air temps, recorded in standardized white painted sheds (weather stations).

Quote from Wiki : " Temperatures measured directly on the ground may exceed air temperatures by 30 to 50 °C. A ground temperature of 84 °C (183.2 °F) has been recorded in Port Sudan, Sudan.[9] A ground temperature of 93.9 °C (201 °F) was recorded also in Furnace Creek Ranch on 15 July 1972; this may be the highest natural ground surface temperature ever recorded"

Link Wiki Highest temperature recorded on Earth - Wikipedia

If there’s no wind, these French hillsides can accumulate a lot of heat, before released as thermal columns.

Thermometers placed directly in the sun, on a darkish surface, can easily reach 50C+ on a normal summer day…

Please do not compare stressed farmers, with official weather stations.

Btw. I had a 2003 Louis Latour, Corton Grancey some days ago.
Taste of raisins, some boring velvety red fruits, no real acids, no tannins, and so sweet (cheap Chilean box wine).
After some glasses with the food, some licorice emerged, as the only real positive note.
Very hard to see any future for this… Not My kind of wine (except for the licorice part). Baked in the sun.

Kind regards,
-Soren.

[Paul_H_Galli]

@Mel Knox

Acc to wikipedia, around 14,000 people died in France due to the heat in 2003. There is hot and then there is HOT! The vines tend to shut down when the temps reach over 102 F, so there is no flavor development.
Plus it was a very dry summer.

I don’t think one can generalize well here, but I think a lot has to do with the acidity in the wine and that is my worry about 2005 in Burgundy.

In California we are used to warm vintages and know what to do. A friend of mine was working at a winery in Pomerol in 1989. The owner of the neighboring winery had must weights of over 14 degrees potential alcohol but he still wanted to chaptalise. He should have been thinking about tartaric.

Mel Knox wrote:
I am beginning to have my doubts about 2005 in Burgundy.



Mel,
Again, what leads you to this conclusion??

TTT

[Anthony_Lombardi]

The question doesn’t have a linear answer. You used Nebbiolo as an example. Nebbiolo is high in acidity & late to ripen. Something else like Tempranillo is low in acidity & ripens earlier. Both grapes from their indigenous regions have reputations for aging beautifully.

If you are collecting verticals from these or really any other wine region & have the capacity to keep them in good temps & condition, you will be able to see what the results will be. Critics will rate vintages and use generalizations about weather to write their pieces, what appeals to you about producers or vintages is your opinion alone. If you discover that cooler years in Piedmont, Bordeaux, Burgundy etc appeal to you, go longer on those.

2011 was a very cold year in Washington. Many critics dismissed the vintage as poor. The wines show considerable acidity, for my palate- they are well worth laying down & checking in with over the next few years. If they really are declining fast, we drink them.

[Matt_Latuchie]

@Nathan Smyth

Has anyone had a 2003 Donnhoff lately?

yes. had the Schloßböckelheimer Felsenberg Spatlese a couple weeks ago and it was fantastic. add to that a couple other notes from the Mosel in 2003:

• 2003 Joh. Jos. Prüm Wehlener Sonnenuhr Riesling Auslese - Germany, Mosel Saar Ruwer (1/13/2015)
  Day 3 in the Mosel - Schaefer/Selbach-Oster/Prum (Mosel Saar Ruwer - Germany): Served blind. Lots of peach, stone fruits and subtle apricots. Medium acidity, and incredibly delicious. I guessed 2007…and was wrong! Another 2003 riesling that bucks the stereotype. (93 pts.)
• 2003 Vollenweider Wolfer Goldgrube Riesling Spätlese Goldkapsel - Germany, Mosel Saar Ruwer (1/12/2015)
  Day 2 in the Mosel - Egon Muller, A.J. Adam, & Vollenweider (Mosel Saar Ruwer - Germany): Daniel found this in the back of his fridge, and he guessed it had been open for roughly 3 months. Amazingly, this is still drinking nicely. Acidity was low, but the fruit tones were all still there. Apricots, apples, pears, and lychee. Fun to drink.
• 2003 Joh. Jos. Prüm Graacher Himmelreich Riesling Auslese Goldkapsel - Germany, Mosel Saar Ruwer (4/25/2014)
  Beautiful nose of lychee, peach, and stone fruit. The palate had lots of cool fruit, a river-like minerality, with medium acidity on the finish. The flavors and depth are there, but there’s a hint too little acidity for my tastes. Very good. (93 pts.)

Posted from CellarTracker

When I was over in the Mosel, we heard multiple winemakers comment that, to them, 2003 may end up resembling 1959. This comment caught all of us off guard, as the narrative we’d become familiar with placed 2003 in the “avoid-like-the-plague-cuz-they’re-overripe” camp. Since tasting a handful in Germany, and more after returning, it’s a delicious vintage that can be found for fair prices across the country.

[Jeff_Leve]

I stand mildly corrected. I should have just read my own website. According to Lafite Rothschild, they had temperatures that reached about 120 F in parcels located close to the chateau. 2003 Bordeaux Wine Vintage Report and Buying Guide

I have no reason to doubt what they told me.

Jay T… You are right. I will work on that. I rechecked and all I found were average temperatures. Not highs. It will take a bit, but I would like to find and add that material to the articles.

[Howard_Cooper]

I think good acidity is a key to wines aging. Keeps the wines fresh. That is what makes 2010 such a special vintage in Burgundy. Good ripeness and good acidity. 1996 is another good example of this and the wines are aging well and slowly.

In Bordeaux, at least in the Medoc, I pretty consistently like 1996s better than 1995s. They seem to have better acidity. Anybody have any analysis of this - am I correct.

[Jeff_Leve]

@Howard Cooper

In Bordeaux, at least in the Medoc, I pretty consistently like 1996s better than 1995s. They seem to have better acidity. Anybody have any analysis of this - am I correct.

My guess is, 1995 is higher in acidity and tannins. 1996 is riper, richer vintage with less acidity and higher levels of alcohol than 1995 in the Medoc.

[Dennis_Kanagie]

@Matt Latuchie

When I was over in the Mosel, we heard multiple winemakers comment that, to them, 2003 may end up resembling 1959. This comment caught all of us off guard, as the narrative we’d become familiar with placed 2003 in the “avoid-like-the-plague-cuz-they’re-overripe” camp. Since tasting a handful in Germany, and more after returning, it’s a delicious vintage that can be found for fair prices across the country.

SHUSH!!!

[Claus_Jeppesen]

@"Michael S. Monie"**

There seems to be a belief that wines from warmer vintages that produce riper wines do not have the capacity to age.** As I postulated in another thread, I think that it depends on what one means by aging. My experience has led me to the anecdotal conclusion that while these wines may not develop the level of complexity one would expect from cooler vintages, they do often become more balanced and less aggressive by diminished overt fruit and perceivable alcohol. I also believe that it is a misconception that these wines will necessarily go south in a relatively short period of time. What do you think? Thanks.

From whom originates this strange belief?

[Michael_S_Monie]

You’ve never dabbled with warm climate Austrailian Shiraz, have you?