Do Premier Cru Burgs = 2-3 Great Oregon Pinots?

I’ve been contemplating trying to break in to Burgundy for years now, and feel in some way as a pinot noir enthusiast (I can barely use this term without laughing thanks to the late Mitch Hedberg…), that it is my duty. That said, I’ve always had difficulty rationalizing the costs associated with Burgundy when framed against my bread and butter- Oregon Pinots. Now that I’m no longer a local in the PNW it becomes a little less clear, as access to the highest quality special bottlings from WV producers is either non-existent, or much more expensive when you factor in shipping.

That said, because my finances dictate that I will probably never be a purchaser of top Grand Cru bottlings, I’m limiting my post to the Premier Cru level- where I find many/most to range in the $80-$150 area. At this price I could snag 2-3 of any the following bottles:

  • Thomas
  • Evesham Wood Cuvee J
  • Belle Pente Reserve
  • Cameron Abbey Ridge/Clos Electrique
  • Eyrie Reserve
  • Westrey Abbey Ridge
  • etc., etc., etc.

With this in mind, can someone make a solid case for why Red Burgundy at the premier cru level is equal to 2-3 of any the above bottles? And for the record, I am serious in my curiosity here. In no way am I speaking with a challenging tone, for as I’ve said I have literally thought hard about turning my attention to Burgundy for years now.

I am with you Chris. I have gravitated away from Burgundy and focus on WV PN and a couple of CA producers. I still ike an aged Burg whenever I pop one, but the quicker ageing curve, value factor and balanced fruit of my favorite domestic producers gives me lots of satifsaction.

It’s all about stylistic preference, though it was much easier to break into Burgundy a few years (or more like a decade) ago.

I would not jump in feet first at the $80+ range. Try some 1er cru wines from Beaune (e.g. Jadot’s Clos des Ursules) or even some good village wines (e.g. Chevillon Nuits St. Georges or Drouhin Chambolle Musigny to name 2 that I like a lot that do not break the bank).

I don’t know your experience with Burgs, but starting with $100 bottles makes little sense to me, especially given your stated value proposition.

This is an apples and oranges thread. I agree with David, why on earth would you compare $80-100 Burgundies with cheaper Oregon wines?

Also, I have no idea as to your taste preferences? Do you like richer wines or more elegant wines? Are you going to drink them young (in which case I would stay away from good Burgundy) or age them. What are you looking for? For example, you can find outstanding Jadot premier cru Burgundies from Beaune for $30-40, but most of them need time.

The notion that as a Pinot Noir lover you have some obligation to Burgundy is quite silly.

If you want a list of value Burgundies (anywhere from $20-$50), there are numerous threads on this board you should search. If you are in DC, go to Weygandt wines in Cleveland Park, ask for 2009 Cecile Tremblay Bourgogne Rouge. It should be somewhere between $25 and $30. See what you think.

Howard, when I said “breaking in” I didn’t mean to imply that I’ve never drank red burgundy. I have in fact opened quite a few bottles before (worked in a fine dining brasserie for two years), though not enough recently to say that I am a “Burgundy guy.” Certainly enough however to know that it is not as cut and dry as the “apples and oranges” comparison which you state. From this statement I can only assume that you have little, if any experience with Oregon pinot. If you had, I have a hard time imagining you stating that comparing a $55 bottle of Thomas, or Cameron’s Abbey Ridge is “apples and oranges” to a $100 bottle of Gevrey or Chambolle. Sure there’s differences, but the bottles that I listed are not so inferior to burgundy as to be out of the realm of comparison…at least in my opinion.

That being said, I suppose the assumption that most would be familiar with the bottles I referenced in my post was a poor one. They’re all fairly elegant expressions of pinot noir, and are a far cry from the lower level $20-30 bottlings you see distributed nationally.

If $80-$150 is what you think of as the normal range for 1er cru Burgundy, you need to find a new place to shop!

It all comes down to what you know best - I have trouble finding Oregon pinots equal to what I can buy in Burgundy for the same money because I know Burgundy better. Seems to be the other way around for you, but that doesn’t say anything about their relative qprs.

I am a fan of both Burgundy and Oregon. Even with the most elegant Oregon Pinots it is indeed apples and oranges. The styles are too dramatically different to make meaningful comparisons, only contrasts.

Chris, go over to macarthurs and buy a couple of the 2009 simon bize savigny premier crus and see what you think.

or even chevillon’s nsg villages.

Is it really a style difference? There are plenty of Oregon winemakers who follow Burgundian wine making techniques / philosophy.

Here’s one way to look at the differences. I’m not buying the apple & orange arguments above. They absolutely are comparable.

  • History. Strong advantage Burgundy.
  • There are many more old vines in Burgundy than Oregon. Advantage Burgundy.
  • Terroir. Advantage Burgundy.
  • Price & Availability. Strong advantage Oregon.

IMO the combo of terroir and old vines makes Burgundy very interesting provided you can afford the premium. If you can’t Oregon offers plenty of great wine.

See, I’ve heard this statement echoed many times before, and again, I have a bit of a hard time with it. Not in that you are saying it, but with the idea that there is a singular burgundian style for which you can claim an “apples and oranges” comparison. I’m not debating that aged, high level burgundies are in all likelihood rather magical, but its always been my impression that the mystique of a burgundian style is rather simplistic. As I’ve said I haven’t drank enough to say I know it well, but I’ve always believed that between volnay, gevrey, chambolle, beaune, etc., etc., there is represented a VAST array of styles. To say these styles are so dramatically different to ANYTHING Oregon can produce seems awfully hard to accept.

To all those that know and love burgundy well, I firmly believe the region offers some really awesome drinking experiences. But I still question whether placing the top-level Oregon producers against solid-very solid premier cru level burgundies, makes for a difficult rationale, when viewed with cost in mind.

Given that its harder to get many Oregon pinots in DC, I will in all likelihood take the plunge and begin gathering red burgundy (I appreciate those specific suggestions provided), I guess I’m simply still waiting to hear an opinion that makes me really go “Ahhhaa that makes sense!”

Chris,

I agree with Howard, etc. You’re doing an apples/oranges thing. I also don’t find the regions comparable for the most part and, honestly, I’m having trouble reconciling the “well, I’ve opened quite a few Burgs” with the need for what really feels like a new drinker’s need for guidance. If you’ve opened a bunch of Burg and they haven’t done it for you or made you want to explore further, then don’t. Just ship OR wine to your new location. If you really feel you need to spend 2-3x in Burg, then the cost of shipping Oregon wines is a no brainer…

For the record, I don’t agree with you at all about Burgundy, but I also don’t really want to work to convert you - your palate is yours, not mine and the key thing is that each of us drink what we like. However, we’ve had this talk before here (not you and I, the community in general) and if you appreciate both styles equally I think there are more good Burgs under $40 or so than OR Pinots… but that’s MY palate. I’m much happier with a nice Savigny than most Oregon Pinots in the same range. You might taste the same wines and disagree.

In my humble opinion the QPR on the best producers’ village and 1er Cru (Lafarge, Montille, Bize, Barthod, Fourrier) is way better than average Oregon Pinot…with a few exceptions. Older average vine age, rockier, less fertile soils and longer developmental potential makes all the difference. That being said Oregon has some stellar producers making transparent and complex Pinots, but you’re still paying $50 a bottle…

I’d even argue that OR often has WORSE qpr than your overachieving Savignys, Beaune, Givry, Mercurey, and great village and bourgogne rouge wines…for $20-40 in Oregon, i’m yet to be really impressed. Tasty drink for sure, but I do think that we’re talking apples and oranges. The animals just aren’t built the same…

+1

I guess that’s my hang-up though- that for $45 in burgundy you’re getting high grade village wines, or low-mid grade 1er Crus. For $40-50 in Oregon you can access the big guns (if you know where to look) from vineyards with 25+ year old vines, suitably crappy soils, etc. In order to go up a rung to get where I feel like the wines that I’ve experienced are comparable in quality, it seems you have to start thinking $75-100ish. Obviously there are exceptions to this statement, but even the names mentioned above, Montille, Barthod, Lafarge, a majority of their 1er Cru wines are $75+, with many more going well over $125.

To Rick’s point, my mentioning that I had opened up a fair amount of burgundy before was in order to establish the baseline for which I could participate in the conversation. While I’d still self-describe as a novice Burgundy drinker, I’ve had enough to have an opinion. Albeit an admittedly underdeveloped one. This opinion was aired to open up it up to others, acknowledging full well there’s plenty of people here who know much more than me, but that didn’t mean to me that I couldn’t disagree with the “apples to oranges” comment as per my experience.

Lastly, since moving to the east coast I have realized that Oregon pinots really do suffer from a lack of national distribution. Even with my limited burgundy experience, I am confident that pretty much any of the bottles I listed above would compete strongly in any blind tasting of red burgundy at the 1er Cru level. The problem however is that none of them ever really exit the PNW markets- save through internet sales that tack on a solid premium for shipping. Compare an aged Eyrie Reserve with most $50 burgundy bottlings, and I’d be real interested in who came out on top. Heck, compare it at the $75 and I’d still anticipate it “winning…” The same goes for most of the other bottles I listed above.

Similarly there isn’t a singular Oregon style either… I wouldn’t read into the apples and oranges line a preference, though it may often be implied. For me, I do consider them apples and oranges, even drinking (and cellaring) the exact Oregon producers you enjoy. Thomas, Cameron, Matello, Evesham, Crowley etc may be extremely “burgundian” for domestic pinot, but I find them to across the board be more fruit forward, and have a sweeter fruit presence (for me) than basically all the burgs I buy, drink, and cellar. Depending on the mood I’m in, I reach for them selectively…

A large part of me wants to respond to the overall question posed here with a resounding NO. Please buy more Oregon, and leave the Burgs alone. It helps my local economy, and the winemakers we all love in Oregon, while helping to (to a tiny degree) decrease the demand for the very well made and affordable burgundies I’m always on the hunt for! Reading the OP’s follow up emails it seems like he has come to his own conclusion. Just get over the shipping premium and drink the Oregon wines you already enjoy…

Chris, I highly recommend that you ignore Burgundy and stick to Oregon Pinot. It is pretty easy to ship wines to DC if you cannot find what you like here.

Chris,

I agree with the apples and oranges point as well. In addition, taste some village wines so you can get a sense of which might fit your palate best before you go dropping $$ on wines you may or may not like. From there, you can decide which if any fit your preferences.

You’re making the mistake that most new Burg drinkers make (and I did this too), namely you’re equating quality with rank in the cru system and highly rated communes with ‘better’. Frankly, I’ve found few Oregon Pinots that compare to the better 1er cru wines from Burgundy. For my palate, the proper comparison IS the village level wine from better producers and you’re biasing the discussion by implicitly assuming that top 1er cru wines are the fair comparison to Oregon Pinot without having the experience to back that skewed assumption.

I could write a lot on this but… why? I don’t mean to be unhelpful, but there’s a LOT of threads on Burg here and several address this topic. You’re wrong in the general sense that one needs to spend $75+ to get very good Burg but you seem to have made this an article of faith and I don’t see why the community should disabuse you of this.

This probably sounds more annoyed that I mean it, but from the title of the OP on, you’ve tilted the discussion toward a “prove to me this isn’t so” thing and I"m kind of tired of trying to convince people that Burgundy has value. Frankly, all it does is either 1) waste my time if you aren’t convinced or 2) increase the competition for wines that can be hard to find if enough people are convinced.

I prefer things like Savigny, Pernand, etc to comparably priced domestic Pinot and various Volnay etc to higher end Oregon wines. You might not and that’s fine. You don’t NEED to love Burg just because you really like Pinot. There are a bunch of very good wines in Oregon. If you like them work with some good PNW retailers and just ship them to yourself.

If you guys (Robert and Seth) have tried all the wines from the original post (a couple do approach $45) and not been impressed, then clearly Oregon Pinot is not for you.

In general I agree they are different, but feel like the styles of the original list could appeal to burg lovers.
Personally I enjoy both and find they represent good values - comparing to $28-60 burgs, not $80+ as originally stated.