Hmmm… smooth vanilla and cream flavor in the panna cotta topped by tropical fruit. You don’t want a dessert wine that’s too sweet or everything will start to cloy in your mouth…
I would suggest either a late harvest vidal or riesling wine from either Canada or upper New York. That should compliment the dessert nicely. Can I ask under what circumstances both the dessert and wine will be served? Sounds like you’re gearing up for a special occasion. ![[cheers.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/0/0ff9bfcdb0964982cd3240b6159868fbdf215b1a.gif "cheers"){kind=small}
What are those ‘traditional flavors’? TIA.
Surprised no one else suggested this. I think people tend to be overly swayed by “local wine goes with local food” thinking - with rare exceptions, few traditional recipes are intended for specific wines (particularly in their modern incarnations), and wines aren’t made for particular dishes except in the broadest strokes (e.g., Italian wines tend to have good acidity).
Go authentic. Serve the tropical fruit for breakfast the next morning. The Piemontese do not screw with perfection by adding vanilla, spices, fruit or anything else to panna cotta. Only in America. Cream and sugar, with enough gelatin to make it set, and no more. That done, go with Moscato d’ Asti for your fruit aromas and flavors (there are many good ones, but Saracco may be the most readily available and it never disappoints) or, if still wine is preferred, Passito di Pantelleria would be the likely Piemontese choice (don’t ask me why the Piemontese, up to their ears in Moscato grapes, have fallen in love with a vin de paille-style Moscato wine from an island near Sicily!), although the Passito would most often be served after dessert, rather than with it.
This is Bruce’s inquiry, but he’s obviously busier today than I, so I can give a few answers.
Bill, I’ve not been to Piedmont but see panna cotta with berries, honey, even balsamic around Italy a lot. Not that authentic matters, as it may be an adaptation. My half-Sicilian wife is going to make it with some suggestion by me. She knows how to cook! Ataulfo mangoes are in peak season. The half-Filipino in me loves them, and we know the host does too. I’ve had the combo and it works.
Bruce was repeating my claim of “traditional” in that the P.C. itself will have just a touch of vanilla. No flavor like lemon, orange, even coconut (all of which I think taste good). I actually kind of wanted the fruit to “reverse” pair the wine. As in I think it will make for a nice match with any of the fruitier/sweeter whites people have suggested. No regard for sparkling as I’m not sure it fits, in that we’re doing Champs paired earlier in the meal. I think the sweeter wines also are good choices as I have a feeling that, in addition to what Bruce brings, there will be a Sauterne or other still dessert wine popped.
1968 D’Oliveiras Bual - light, sweet, great acidity and sublime long finish. Will stand up to the cream and won’t dominate the delicacy of the Panna Cotta. In fact it will complement both texture and flavor. If you want slightly less sweet, go for a Verdelho.
Not sure what Bob’s stages are but I agree that good Sauternes seems to change in character every 10 years or so. This theory was first put to me by Compte Alexandre de Lur Saluces of Ch de Fargues and it seems to follow pretty well.
The first ten years are characterised by the fresh citrus fruit flavours of the wine alongside whatever acidity the vintage/winemaker has provided. Fresh pineapples, peaches, oranges, lemons, limes etc. tend to predominate.
The next ten years (wines from the 1990s now) see these fruit flavours mellow to be replaced by more dried and/or honeyed fruit flavours - dried apricots, honeyed oranges etc. There’s more depth of flavour and an apparent reduction in acidity/freshness.
The third ten years (wines from the 1980s now) see more toasty and roasted flavours come into play, maybe a hint of nuts or a touch of coffee/mocha to compliment and blend with the remaining fruit flavours. I had a bottle of 1986 Ch Sigalas Rabaud last week and it had hints of almond alongside a predominate marmalade flavour and appeared much drier. It would have gone well with panna cotte!
After that (Bob’s 1975 Rieussec and beyond) the smooth caramelised, rich honeyed and more powerful deeper roasted/toasted flavours really come into play. Acidity, whilst still there doing its job, isn’t really apparent at all and the fruit flavours are fully mature and there really to remind you of the terroir/character of a particular wine.
That’s my assessment but I am constantly being surprised by old Sauternes and generalisation is dangerous!
Roberto is much more experienced here with specifics but I want to put in my $0.02. La Spinetta(Rivetti) makes a really nice one that would be perfect! It is called Biancospino.
And another, a tad more expensive, called Bricco Quaglia. Both terrific.
John, I am not intending to be a hardass about panna cotta, and Bruce will, of course, do what he thinks best. However, while these things can never be proven, panna cotta is believed to be a Piemontese invention (at a minimum, they seem to eat more of it than anybody else). That makes sense, as the quality of dairy products in the alpine and subalpine areas of northwestern Italy is tremendous. There is no vanilla in the traditional recipe. It is what it claims to be: “cooked cream” that is sweetened and made to set in little flan-like servings by fish gelatin. That said, I do not disagree that you could add almost anything to panna cotta and have it taste great: vanilla, nutmeg, cinnamon, virtually all fruits, etc. As one who lives in the Piemonte half of every year, I just feel the need to express panna cotta political correctness (or “p.c.p.c.”)! This falls into the same category as drinking cappuccino after the mid-morning coffee break. No doubt some Italians do it, but the majority embrace the dogma because, well, Italians love all manner of dogma. Thus, I, too, as an adoptive (and biased) Piemontese, think of panna cotta with fruit and cappuccino after dinner as strictly Americani phenomena!
Thanks for all the responses so far. When I asked John how his wife Mary intended to make the panna cotta, he responded that it would be “traditional” but with the tropical fruit topping. I should have realized I would spark a minor brouhaha over the concept of “traditional” panna cotta. ![[wow.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/7/7d450e9830889c8943b674446a21b7254cad657e.gif "wow"){kind=small}
I should add that this will be for a friend’s birthday dinner, so I’m inclined to select a special bottle of dessert wine, all things being equal…
Bruce
Bruce, no brouhaha. I speak authoritatively from the traditionalist point of view and relevant experience. But that does not mean that I do not enjoy mangoes at peak ripeness as much as the next guy. I just want mine served with Thai coconut sticky rice and a sweet German Riesling instead of panna cotta, that’s all!
[quote="Bill KlappAnd another, a tad more expensive, called Bricco Quaglia. Both terrific.
John, I am not intending to be a hardass about panna cotta, and Bruce will, of course, do what he thinks best. However, while these things can never be proven, panna cotta is believed to be a Piemontese invention (at a minimum, they seem to eat more of it than anybody else). That makes sense, as the quality of dairy products in the alpine and subalpine areas of northwestern Italy is tremendous. There is no vanilla in the traditional recipe. It is what it claims to be: “cooked cream” that is sweetened and made to set in little flan-like servings by fish gelatin. That said, I do not disagree that you could add almost anything to panna cotta and have it taste great: vanilla, nutmeg, cinnamon, virtually all fruits, etc. As one who lives in the Piemonte half of every year, I just feel the need to express panna cotta political correctness (or “p.c.p.c.”)! This falls into the same category as drinking cappuccino after the mid-morning coffee break. No doubt some Italians do it, but the majority embrace the dogma because, well, Italians love all manner of dogma. Thus, I, too, as an adoptive (and biased) Piemontese, think of panna cotta with fruit and cappuccino after dinner as strictly Americani phenomena![/quote]
No problem Bill. Lucky you to spend so much time in Italy! We have some Italian cookbooks and you’re correct about the belief that PC is believed to be Piemontese. I’ve read some stuff that agrees with the no vanilla, and have seen the original fish component cited. I wonder if that affected the taste at all? Heck, if panna cotta is a pre-Columbian creation it may predate the arrival of vanilla.
You might have guessed from the Pavie thread that I am in the “fruity, hedonistic” school with less regard for traditon than some.
If it tastes good, I’m completely fine with it. I like to try traditional or authentic cuisine, and certainly do if I am away from home. At home especially here in Cal, we modify regional dishes a lot. Though I will say I was served a Chiles en Nogada over the weekend with no pomegranate seeds which pissed me off. So we all have our sticking points. Mary wanted to do berries, but I pushed mango. Funny that you mention the sticky rice. I love it, and I know our host does too. I was trying to push a Euro version of those flavors with some coconut in the PC and a pandan garnish. I was decidedly rejecting by the executive chef!
I actually enjoy moscato d’asti and for other applications am interested in learning some very good versions. On this night, with a champagne earlier, following some very good 98 Right-Bankers, and considering what other dessert wine might be opened, it might not be the best choice. But that is up to Bruce. He always chooses something appropriate.
I like your system as well. The four stages that I remember (I thought it was b hudak, but I could have been mistaken) broke down sauternes development. I remember that the second stage was the only one where the sauternes didn’t show well. I was curious about the stages since I just had a 2005 Chateau de Fargues that just wasn’t as extraordinary as I had expected it to be (and didn’t live up to the 2001 or the 2003), and I was curious about whether it might have been stuck in that stage II phase.
Bruce,
Since it’s an occasion and you’d like a special wine, what about splitting courses? Do the panna cotta with a moscato, etc that matches and then a special bottle of dessert wine? Or rather, do the special bottle, then the dessert?
No problem Bill. Lucky you to spend so much time in Italy! We have some Italian cookbooks and you’re correct about the belief that PC is believed to be Piemontese. I’ve read some stuff that agrees with the no vanilla, and have seen the original fish component cited. I wonder if that affected the taste at all? Heck, if panna cotta is a pre-Columbian creation it may predate the arrival of vanilla.
You might have guessed from the Pavie thread that I am in the “fruity, hedonistic” school with less regard for traditon than some.
If it tastes good, I’m completely fine with it. I like to try traditional or authentic cuisine, and certainly do if I am away from home. At home especially here in Cal, we modify regional dishes a lot. Though I will say I was served a Chiles en Nogada over the weekend with no pomegranate seeds which pissed me off. So we all have our sticking points. Mary wanted to do berries, but I pushed mango. Funny that you mention the sticky rice. I love it, and I know our host does too. I was trying to push a Euro version of those flavors with some coconut in the PC and a pandan garnish. I was decidedly rejecting by the executive chef!
I actually enjoy moscato d’asti and for other applications am interested in learning some very good versions. On this night, with a champagne earlier, following some very good 98 Right-Bankers, and considering what other dessert wine might be opened, it might not be the best choice. But that is up to Bruce. He always chooses something appropriate.[/quote]
John, fish gelatin is more common than cow gelatin in Europe, but it is just as flavorless and odorless. I have used both, and I give a slight nod to the fish type, which does not bind as quickly or firmly as good ol’ Knox Gelatin. The fish gelatin is harder to come by over here, but many professional chefs use it…
Steve’s post is pretty similar to this, as I read it:
Stage I: Young Sauternes at release, fresh, bright fruit
Stage II: Middle stage where they are awkward to drink. probably the least complex without significant air time.
Stage III: ‘maturity’ where there is still some sweetness and lots of fruit and complexity. The fruit is more dried fruit here
Stage IV: wine drinks relatively dry compared to earlier in life. More caramel, nutty aromas. This really is a different stage from ‘maturity’.
I think that was the only 75 I had at all when we had it at the Lotus. I know that in other visits there, I have opened up other older Sauternes with you as well but I don’t recall which ones off the top of my head.
Since the suggestions have been so different, I may end up pulling two different half bottles of dessert wine and serving them both with the panna cotta to see which pairing people prefer…
Bruce
From my experience the periods when Sauternes can shut down, if at all, vary considerably but are generally during the younger years. The 2005’s are a good example as they have been a little closed until recently. I tasted some Climens and Suduiraut last month, however, that were just beginning to come out nicely so the de Fargues shouldn’t be far behind.
I would never not open a bottle for fear that it might be at a difficult stage as the odds are that there will be something exciting there!