Cutting Pinot with Syrah in CA: Does it happen?

[Cris_Whetstone]

@Rick Gregory

Yes Mike, but 1) what does the buying public think of it as and 2) The Geyserville is just one example of how to do this. Let’s not get hung up on it specifically.

I think what you are not seeing is that some of us IN the public are telling you what it means to us. Even if we are talking about someone with less knowledge than the average person on this board, when they go to buy ‘Zinfandel’ from Ridge they are going to find out VERY quickly that Ridge has many bottlings named by where they are from. I think the number of people who buy their Zins and equate Lytton Springs with something like Insignia or Dom Perignon would be very small. ‘Springs’ and ‘ville’ generally identify places after all.

[Cris_Whetstone]

@Adam Lee

I can say that I think that the idea of relying on the government to enforce any label claims is pretty silly. We’ve recently been going through some trials with our 2010 Novy Blanc de Pinot Noir. Two years ago we were told that the “Blanc de Pinot Noir” label was rejected unless we agreed to also put the phrase “White Wine” on it – as Pinot Noir is a red grape and apparently “white wine” needed to be on the label so folks wouldn’t get the “Blanc” confused with something other than white wine. — This year, two years later, same wine – we are being told that the label is rejected, unless we agree to take the phrase “White Wine” off the label as Pinot Noir is a red grape and so we can’t have the words “white wine” on the label.

Hilarious. Gotta love gub’ment.

[Rick_Gregory]

@Cris Whetstone

@Rick Gregory

Yes Mike, but 1) what does the buying public think of it as and 2) The Geyserville is just one example of how to do this. Let’s not get hung up on it specifically.

I think what you are not seeing is that some of us IN the public are telling you what it means to us. Even if we are talking about someone with less knowledge than the average person on this board, when they go to buy ‘Zinfandel’ from Ridge they are going to find out VERY quickly that Ridge has many bottlings named by where they are from. I think the number of people who buy their Zins and equate Lytton Springs with something like Insignia or Dom Perignon would be very small. ‘Springs’ and ‘ville’ generally identify places after all.

Fine. Great. You win, you’re obviously right and I, of course am wrong. Sheesh. Here’s the thing though - WE’RE NOT TYPICAL. How many times does that need to be said on wine boards? We’re at one edge of the fricking curve and I’d bet there are a bunch of people who don’t really recall what Geyserville is made of. But you know what? If it makes you feel better to ‘win’ this one, you go right ahead. Especially since this is just an example of the overall point I was making.

Here, I’ll put it in simple words… One can be successful at making, marketing and selling a wine even if it’s not able to legally be called by its varietal name. You can use a vineyard name or a fantasy name and do just fine presuming the wine’s good.

[john_holdredge]

@Rick Gregory

[You can use a vineyard name or a fantasy name and do just fine presuming the wine’s good.

Rick- the correct term in this industry is “fanciful” name, not “fantasy”.

Please write “my bad” a few dozen times, and refer to the asociated thread in the asylum.

[Scott_Butler]

@Chris Seiber

I pretty much dismiss the “they are blending syrah in to the pinot!!” allegations as just another device for certain AFWE extremist types to use in bashing pinot that is too ripe or fruity or Californian for their tastes. Winemaking isn’t such a closely guarded secrecy thing everywhere, such that there wouldn’t be credible testimony and evidence of it out there in the public domain if it were indeed a widespread practice among premium producers. But all there ever are is allegations, and never any evidence.

[Robert.Fleming]

@Cris Whetstone

Monte Bello is the same idea though I believe in the vast majority of vintages it would qualify as ‘Cabernet’.

Inquiring minds want to know.

Varietal information on the Ridge website goes back to the 1991 vintage. For eighteen vintages, 1991 through 2008, it’s 50-50:

• 75% or more Cabernet: 1991, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997, 2000, 2003, 2004, 2007
• Less than 75% Cabernet: 1994, 1995, 1998, 1999, 2001, 2002, 2005, 2006, 2008

[Bill_Tex_Landreth]

@Bob Wood

Kent Dorfman: “Oh, wow. This is gonna be GREAT!”

“May I have ten thousand marbles, please?”

[john_holdredge]

@Bill Tex Landreth

@Bob Wood

Kent Dorfman: “Oh, wow. This is gonna be GREAT!”

“May I have ten thousand marbles, please?”

Unfortunately, this one has fizzled- usually this topic is good for a raging diatribe or three, coupled with some personal insults.

This place has really gone downhill since the last technical update.

[Bill_Tex_Landreth]

@john holdredge

@Bill Tex Landreth

@Bob Wood

Kent Dorfman: “Oh, wow. This is gonna be GREAT!”

“May I have ten thousand marbles, please?”

Unfortunately, this one has fizzled- usually this topic is good for a raging diatribe or three, coupled with some personal insults.

This place has really gone downhill since the last technical update.

I blame myself.

- YouTube

[Lee_Short]

@Peter Cargasacchi

As the size of a sphere decreases, the ratio of surface area to volume increases exponentially.

No, it doesn’t. The ratio of a sphere’s surface to it’s volume is 3/r for any nonzero radius r. That does not constitute an exponential relationship.

[Dav1dZ]

By the way, it’s certainly happening in the Finger Lakes. The best producers are purists. The lesser producers have admitted to me they cut Pinot with Saperavi or other varieties to boost color.

Whoa, they’re growing Saperavi in the Finger Lakes? Isn’t Saperavi an indigenous Georgian variety?

[Cris_Whetstone]

Bill and John,

let me introduce you to a place where your movie quoting exploits not only fit in better but will be far more welcome. You may know it.

http://www.wineberserkers.com/viewforum.php?f=5

I’ve moved your off topic posts here:

http://www.wineberserkers.com/viewtopic.php?p=537190#p537190

Thanks and good drinking!

[G_D_y_e_r]

@Lee Short

@Peter Cargasacchi

As the size of a sphere decreases, the ratio of surface area to volume increases exponentially.

No, it doesn’t. The ratio of a sphere’s surface to it’s volume is 3/r for any nonzero radius r. That does not constitute an exponential relationship.

Maybe he was thinking that the lowest non-constant order in a Taylor expansion is linear:

e^x = sum from n=0 to infinity (x^n/n!) ~ 1 + x for x << 1

I kid, I kid.

[Larry_P]

@Rick Gregory

We’re at one edge of the fricking curve and I’d bet there are a bunch of people who don’t really recall what Geyserville is made of.

FWIW I’d argue the people on the fat part of that curve aren’t drinking ~$30 Zin/field blend

@Rick Gregory

One can be successful at making, marketing and selling a wine even if it’s not able to legally be called by its varietal name. You can use a vineyard name or a fantasy name and do just fine presuming the wine’s good.

Agree and I’ll add I’ve always thought people on our edge of the curve much prefer a wine that has a sense of place. I don’t get this insisting on varietal breakdown. I certainly don’t mind the Ridge label but I also don’t go looking for that info on a CdP label.

[Al_Osterheld]

I was also surprised they were producing Saperavi in the Finger Lakes. I’ve had a few from Georgia that varied between okay and less okay, but don’t really have a handle on the potential of the variety.

-Al

[PaulM]

@Al Osterheld

I was also surprised they were producing Saperavi in the Finger Lakes. I’ve had a few from Georgia that varied between okay and less okay, but don’t really have a handle on the potential of the variety.

-Al

Well, Stalin liked it.

(My experiences have tended toward the “less okay,” but it’s been a while and post-Soviet wine circa 1999 was probably a different beast - agree they don’t say much about potential.)

[Joe_Czerwinski]

I’ve seen it from the Finger Lakes–it’s been there a good long time (a decade, at least, probably more). My guess would be it goes back to Konstantin Frank, but I don’t know for sure.

More recently I’ve discovered one from Australia that’s being brought into the U.S. (Hugh Hamilton Wines, in McLaren Vale).

[Al_Osterheld]

@Paul Marquardt

@Al Osterheld

I was also surprised they were producing Saperavi in the Finger Lakes. I’ve had a few from Georgia that varied between okay and less okay, but don’t really have a handle on the potential of the variety.

-Al

Well, Stalin liked it.

(My experiences have tended toward the “less okay,” but it’s been a while and post-Soviet wine circa 1999 was probably a different beast - agree they don’t say much about potential.)

Georgian Saperavi wines come in semi-sweet versions like Kindzmarauli and Akhesheni, as well as dry versions like Mukuzani, or simpler wines labeled Saperavi. I think it also is used in blends with Cabernet Sauvignon labeled Kagor. When I was served “Stalin’s favorite wine” in Russia during the 1990s, it was usually a semi-sweet wine and generally not so good. I’ve had some better versions that were bought in Russian shops here in the USA, although my favorite was a particular Kvanchkara which I think is a blend of different Georgian varieties. I had a nice Mukuzani in a Georgian restaurant in Moscow (Kavkazskaya Plennitsa, I think). The wines I’ve had that were labeled Saperavi were mostly pretty basic.

-Al

[C_Grimm]

@Chris Seiber

@C. Grimm

If good producers aren’t adding Syrah, is there any reason they would object to putting “100% Pinot noir” in small type on the back label?

Yes. It would open them up to being sued if it turned out a couple of vines in the middle of the vineyard are not pinot noir, which may be a vineyard they don’t even own or control, or if there was some minor error in the grapes they purchased or in the winery. The AVA rules are designed to allow some leeway in such situations.

On a more practical level, why should they have to say it? What is it about new world pinot noir, of all wine made around the world, that should require every producer to swear that it’s 100% of the variety? If that’s a crucial distinction to you, just buy from those satisfy you about the 100 percentness of their pinot.

Just catching back up to this thread.

I think that is, ahem, a silly argument!

Why is it any more trouble than putting the alcohol content in a bottle? You know the intent of what I’m saying, so isn’t “there may be a couple stray vines in the vineyard” completely over-the-top ridiculous?

I don’t think there is anything wrong with requiring disclosure of contents if one is to make a varietal claim. If they don’t want to make the varietal claim they can just say “Red Wine.” Right?

Sometimes I drink wine because I just want a tasty wine. Sometimes I want a wine that reflects the terroir. Sometimes I want a wine that reflects the grape. As a consumer I’d like to know what is in the bottle. Our food labels disclose what we get, so why not wine? How is the producer harmed in saying what is in the bottle?

If I take an ad in the paper selling my car and say “new tires” when only 75% of the tires were new, would you consider the car to have new tires?

“On a practical level,” someone trying to sell a product ought to let their customer know what they are buying.

[Evan_Dawson]

@Joe Czerwinski

I’ve seen it from the Finger Lakes–it’s been there a good long time (a decade, at least, probably more). My guess would be it goes back to Konstantin Frank, but I don’t know for sure.

More recently I’ve discovered one from Australia that’s being brought into the U.S. (Hugh Hamilton Wines, in McLaren Vale).

This is one of those times when Konstantin is not responsible. A winery called McGregor Vineyard purchased some Georgian cuttings from Beltsville, Maryland back in 1980. They spent about ten years looking for the potential in them, blending, etc. In 1991 they settled on a blend of Saperavi and Sereksiya Charni that they called Black Russian Red.

It’s become a cult wine for McGregor. It’s nothing like the Georgian Saperavis. It’s dry, with a unique set of descriptors that sort of bely its darkness. Very high acid, needs ML and some time to settle down. Oh, and it sells out each year for $60 a bottle.

But ti’s not common in the region. It’s rumored that Dr. Frank has some Saperavi for blending purposes, but they’ve never confirmed that to me. Standing Stone planted Saperavi in 1993 and used to try it as a blending component, but their winemaker told me that even a drop of Saperavi in a barrel of Pinot sent things wildly out of whack. So they’re now bottling it on its own, and it has some similarity to the Black Russian Red. But they can’t call it Saperavi yet, because TTB won’t allow it.