Croatia: wines of Dalmatia...

[Tvrtko_C]

I learned from a small winemaker in Starigrad who made Grasevina wines that they will soak barrels in salt water. Not sure whether that is used widely in other areas.

Do you mean Starigrad on Hvar Island? Someone there who actually makes Grasevina? If true, that would be very strange indeed, as none is actually grown there, as far as I know.

[Mikael_OB]

Believe Tvrtko been traumatized when it comes to Grasevina (mass produced and only good for gemist wines), I have had bad experience as well. There are plonk out there, however with time and trying a few better versions I can see quite some very good quality wines as well.

Oh, come on, Mikael. Stop being so reasonably optimistic, mate. The horror is intrinsic. Let’s just face it: Grasevina is a natural calamity, not a grape variety .

(On a slightly more serious note, to me it belongs to the same category as Gewuerztraminer: it seems to have this pasty, slightly amorphous, quality to it, for lack of a better term, that I just can’t stand. End of story. More for all those thirsty Croats out there, I guess…).

Normally I would at least challenge you to have an open mind. In this case and for now An offline blind tasting on the otherhand…

[Dennis_Borczon]

What is the travel situation in Croatia right now? Can you travel with just proof of vaccination? Need a Covid test first? Just curious…

[bradkaplan]

Croatia is one of the most “open” countries - vaccinated tourists do not need a test, but are asked to fill out a form in advance. We had no issues. Crowds were definitely smaller than typical, though Split in particular was buzzing and restaurants/bars were often full and reservations recommended. A good degree of mask wearing indoors still.

[Otto_Forsberg]

Graševina is the same thing as Welschriesling - that neutral, boring medium-acid white grape incapable of greatness.

You living legend . I tend to take a lot of stick for my honesty , yet, I do believe that the absence of a gag reflex is a sine-qua-non for coping with Grasevina . It is, of course, sadly ubiquitous in Croatia. While I’ve spent decades trying to steer a safe course, well away from Grasevina/Welschriesling, the best I’ve tasted (and probably the only one approaching anything that I could picture myself drinking again) was actually from Hungary’s Lake Balaton just across the border (by Laszlo Bussay, IIRC).

As per Edi Maletic (probably Croatia’s best known ampelographer), apparently, Malvazija Dubrovacka = Malvasia delle Lipari, Malvasia di Sardegna, Greco di Gerace, Malvasia de Sitges and Malvasia de Lanzarote, for what it’s worth…

Rukatac/Marastina… Don’t quote me on this, but I’ve long held the impression that the ampelography is possibly less than perfectly reliable here, partly also because people there sometimes tend to use these as catch-all terms for whatever white grapes they have in the vineyard that (to them, at least) are not readily identifiable as one thing or the other… and there’s quite a bit of that around along Croatia’s coast, as you can probably imagine. A lot of this is folklore, rather than any kind of serious ampelography, I’m afraid. On the whole, what you said about R/M being somewhat acidity-challenged is spot-on, but, again, local expressions can vary considerably depending on the usual factors such as terroir/specific biotype (at least hypothetically) etc. So, the whole picture might be a little more complex, I think.

Malvasia Istriana can still be a bit of a minefield, too. Even as little as 15 years ago, the really interesting examples were a bit thin on the ground. The overwhelming majority of the wines were made to please the market: strictly reductive, very homogenous in style and expression, to be drunk within two, three years at most, overall quite dull and unexciting. A bit like trying to emulate the mind-numbing, technological sameness of the NZ Sauv Blanc stereotype, all the rage back then. The more interesting renditions were those still made in a more old-fashioned, traditional mould, often only found in random private family cellars scattered across Istria and mostly not commercialised. Things began to change no more than cca 15 years ago with the advent of winemakers like Bruno Trapan or Dimitri Brecevic.

Indeed, Grk is potentially very special, but destined to remain a very rare commodity (as discussed here in a recent thread). Is it Croatia’s best indigenous white variety? Possibly. Personally, though, I like Vugava/Bugava at least as much, and perhaps a bit more.

That Bussay Welschriesling sounds interesting, thanks for the tip!

I’ve never been a fan of Welschriesling, but when visiting Croatia, found out that at least the handful of Graševina I tasted showed more depth and structure compared to the bland and flabby examples one usually gets from Austria, Czech Republic and Slovakia, which took me by surprise. I wouldn’t say that Graševina is particularly interesting or memorable for a Croatian white variety, but instead Croatian Graševinas are often (not always) better than the examples one can find in the neighboring countries.

And if you are interested to check out the well-made example I mentioned that shows surprising depth and structure for the variety, try to find a bottle of Gala Welschriesling Hermes. It sees some oak, so it definitely calls for some cellaring - a freshly bottled version I tasted some time ago was a bit too oaky for my preference, but the wine definitely benefits from aging.

And yes, that Malvazija Dubrovacka = Malvasia delle Lipari sounds familiar. I don’t have my copy of Wine Grapes at hand, so I couldn’t check out. Anyways, that still confirms what I remembered - that Malvazija Dubrovacka isn’t an indigenous variety.

And again yes, I’ve noticed that there is a lot of variation on the varietal expression of Rukatac / Marastina, but chalked it up to differences in both terroir and different clones - after all, I’ve had also some surprisingly nice Malvasia Toscana -driven whites even though the variety is often pretty uninteresting. Seeing how long the variety has been grown in Croatia, I could imagine there must be some clonal variation going on. And of course the ampelography can be sketchy and vines people think are Rukatac / Marastina can be something entirely different.

I have no idea how Malvazija Istarska was 15 years ago, as all the Croatian wines I’ve tasted I’ve had in the last 10 years. However, to me it seems one of the most interesting white variety around Istria (not only in Croatia, but also in Italy and Slovenia). Sure, probably all the simple, crisp and reductively made whites all taste pretty much the same and offer nothing of interest, but I can imagine things are now much better than they were 15 years ago?

You’ve mentioned Vugava before as well, and it’s still on my bucket list! It definitely sounds like a variety worth checking out.

Interesting. The Graševina wines I recall tasting were not particularly memorable. Most bottles that I had were nicely chilled and enjoyed more as an aperitif than a wine.

And that’s how many of them are. I didn’t say that Croatian Graševinas are particularly memorable, but I did say that Welschriesling is a variety incapable of greatness. What I also said was that it seems that Croatian Graševinas are of higher quality than Welschrieslings usually are. That’s still more a damning with a faint praise than a true compliment.

[T_Melloni]

I learned from a small winemaker in Starigrad who made Grasevina wines that they will soak barrels in salt water. Not sure whether that is used widely in other areas.

Do you mean Starigrad on Hvar Island? Someone there who actually makes Grasevina? If true, that would be very strange indeed, as none is actually grown there, as far as I know.

Yes, I believe it was in Starigrad on Hvar. It was a small family operation - father and son - in a ground floor cellar with a hand bottling operation. Big wooden casks with a few smaller ones. Pretty sure they said Grasevina, but then I do not speak Croatian and the younger winemaker spoke little English.

While walking through the Stari Grad Plain, I did meet someone working harvesting red grapes. Did not get the variety. We asked him about whether he finds artifacts while working the soil. He said he would cover them up with soil if he found any, otherwise he risked having his farming put to a stop while archaeologists investigated. Pretty cool place.

[Scott_Jameson]

Croatia is one of the most “open” countries - vaccinated tourists do not need a test, but are asked to fill out a form in advance. We had no issues. Crowds were definitely smaller than typical, though Split in particular was buzzing and restaurants/bars were often full and reservations recommended. A good degree of mask wearing indoors still.

When we arrived in Dubrovnik 3 weeks ago, we had to show negative test results and the “TOURIST” entry form. We were vaccinated and had the CDC forms with us, but were never asked to show them.

To keep this wine related, our trip wasn’t focused on wine, but we did visit 2 wineries during the week were were there. Milos offered several vintages of Plavic Mali for tasting, all aged in large oak foudres. All leaned toward the big, fruit forward side. The older wines - 2011 and 2007, IIRC - retained that character, but had mellowed some and developed some nice complex flavors. Milos also had a rose made from Plavic Mali that was delicious with very bright, rich fruit flavors. Grgic offered 2 wines to taste. Their Pošip was very tasty, with crisp, fruit flavors atop a minerally streak. This turned out to be a great paring with fresh oysters and mussels at dinner later. They also had a Plavic Mali. Unlike Milos, Gigic aged theirs in 225L French oak barrels, including some new. The oak influence was evident and tasted more familiar to my CA palate.

[m_ristev]

anyone try the dubokovic wines from hvar?

[Otto_Forsberg]

anyone try the dubokovic wines from hvar?

Yes, some. Quite good stuff, although some wines can get a bit too wild/volatile. Love their Moja wines, though - at least Moja M and Moja B have been terrific.

[Mikael_OB]

anyone try the dubokovic wines from hvar?

Have tried a few vintages and labels, was not too impressed by the the amber wines. Moja otok was quite ok, moja b too oxidize for my taste.

Liked the Plavac Mali 2718, amd had the 2013 less than half a year ago - it was drinking well, no sign of getting tired as well.

[Tvrtko_C]

anyone try the dubokovic wines from hvar?

Yes, plenty. Unimpressed for the most part, and his top-of-the range ultraexpensive Plavac Mali, Medvid, always drinks more like Vintage Port. All right for some, I guess. I find all his other wines quite forgettable as well. Some are not bad, but there are simply much better options around for someone with my palate preferences.

[Tvrtko_C]

Yes, I believe it was in Starigrad on Hvar. It was a small family operation - father and son - in a ground floor cellar with a hand bottling operation.

Knowing the place quite well, I still find that somewhat difficult to believe. Having said that, sure, anything is possible, it just doesn’t make any sense at all. I guess they buy their grapes from someone in Slavonia, which is about 300km north of Starigrad, and a VERY different climate… Draw your own conclusions

[Tvrtko_C]

Milos offered several vintages of Plavic Mali for tasting, all aged in large oak foudres. All leaned toward the big, fruit forward side. The older wines - 2011 and 2007, IIRC - retained that character, but had mellowed some and developed some nice complex flavors. Milos also had a rose made from Plavic Mali that was delicious with very bright, rich fruit flavors.

Oh, the memories… Things have changed dramatically at this winery over the last ten or so years. The style is nothing like it used to be. I still have a fair collection of older vintages in my cellar. Some vintages of Stagnum, specifically, are to my mind some of the best, if not THE best, red wines ever produced in the country. Incidentally, I wrote a longish piece about Milos about ten years ago. Unfortunately, it’s in Croatian

[Tvrtko_C]

That Bussay Welschriesling sounds interesting, thanks for the tip!

Caveat: Laszlo Bussay died some years ago, I’ve absolutely no idea what’s going on there now.

[Otto_Forsberg]

That Bussay Welschriesling sounds interesting, thanks for the tip!

Caveat: Laszlo Bussay died some years ago, I’ve absolutely no idea what’s going on there now.

Well, shucks.

[Mikael_OB]

Milos offered several vintages of Plavic Mali for tasting, all aged in large oak foudres. All leaned toward the big, fruit forward side. The older wines - 2011 and 2007, IIRC - retained that character, but had mellowed some and developed some nice complex flavors. Milos also had a rose made from Plavic Mali that was delicious with very bright, rich fruit flavors.

Oh, the memories… Things have changed dramatically at this winery over the last ten or so years. The style is nothing like it used to be. I still have a fair collection of older vintages in my cellar. Some vintages of Stagnum, specifically, are to my mind some of the best, if not THE best, red wines ever produced in the country. Incidentally, I wrote a longish piece about Milos about ten years ago. Unfortunately, it’s in Croatian

Hard to argue with the greatness of Milos. Why do you feel it changed dramatically over the last 10 years, and in what direction?
Sounds like my (oldest vintage) 2006 are babies compared to what you have in the cellar

Llove the regular Plavac. Only serious Plavac Maili I have come across with around 13.5% alcohol - my guess, while only a guess is that it has something to do with the vines being ungrafted (believe almost all of the vines, though not all). Ages well. Had a tasting about 2 years ago with a 2010 Plavac and Zlatan Grand Cru 2010. The latter was drinking well however feel it had less miles in it, while Milos’ Plavac just started getting into the zone, tannins slightly starting to softening and complexity beginning to show - no doubt which was the better wine of the two.

[Tvrtko_C]

Hard to argue with the greatness of Milos. Why do you feel it changed dramatically over the last 10 years, and in what direction?
Sounds like my (oldest vintage) 2006 are babies compared to what you have in the cellar

Llove the regular Plavac. Only serious Plavac Maili I have come across with around 13.5% alcohol - my guess, while only a guess is that it has something to do with the vines being ungrafted (believe almost all of the vines, though not all). Ages well. Had a tasting about 2 years ago with a 2010 Plavac and Zlatan Grand Cru 2010. The latter was drinking well however feel it had less miles in it, while Milos’ Plavac just started getting into the zone, tannins slightly starting to softening and complexity beginning to show - no doubt which was the better wine of the two.

What changed? It’s a long story… I still have a bottle of the 1993 Stagnum left, so that qualifies as older than 2006, I guess . The stash is thinning out fast, though…
Ungrafted??? First I hear of it. Nonetheless, as for the entry-level PM, I think I still have a couple of bottles of 2004 and 2006 in the cellar. Don’t know why, the 2004 was already a bit fully mature, if you know what I mean, years ago

[Mikael_OB]

You know I am honestly curious to hear Please PM if you don’t want to type it out in the open.
hehe, I guess it does. Close after independence bottle! Quite remarkable to have vintages going back that far

Yes I am 100% sure about ungrafted. Heard it during a visit there and I am sure there is an interview (online) with Ivan mentioning it as well. Not all vintages/bottles age with grace…

[bradkaplan]

Just popped a couple bottles I brought home. Let’s just say they may have suffered from bottle shock, or simply the shock of not being drunk on the island of Korcula in their beautiful native environment : )

[Dennis_Atick]

Just popped a couple bottles I brought home. Let’s just say they may have suffered from bottle shock, or simply the shock of not being drunk on the island of Korcula in their beautiful native environment : )

The Grk was good! Even though I’d like to buy a vowel. I did like the Grk more than the Rose. Thanks for bringing those, interesting to try.