Counterfeit wine

[M_M_c_C_a_l_l]

I’m about two-thirds of the way through The Billionaire’s Vinegar. Fascinating book (if there’s anyone left here who hasn’t read it) and I highly recommend it.

Few (none?) of us will ever taste a 1787 Lafite or 1784 Yquem, but have you ever opened a valuable bottle and then suspected that it was a fake based on what was in your glass? I can’t remember the exact quote, but to paraphrase the author, there’s far more '82 Pétrus in the world today than Pétrus produced in 1982.

[Ray.Tuppa_sch]

@Melissa M c C a l l

but have you ever opened a valuable bottle and then suspected that it was a fake based on what was in your glass?

Far too many.

[M_M_c_C_a_l_l]

@Ray Tuppatsch

@Melissa M c C a l l

but have you ever opened a valuable bottle and then suspected that it was a fake based on what was in your glass?

Far too many.

Ray, would you mind elaborating? Are there any particular wines beyond the obvious (first growths, DRC) of which you’ve tasted counterfeits? Have they been bottles you’ve purchased yourself? Bottles at large tastings? Did you have any sense for what was actually in the glass? One of the things I found most appalling in BV was that some of the doctored wines weren’t merely newer vintages, but chemistry experiments of cheap wines and whatever liqueurs might help simulate the desired flavors.

[Michael_Bowden]

Had these 2 wines that I thought were fakes.

1961 Gaja Barbaresco
1978 DRC La Tache (it was in a large format)

[Ray.Tuppa_sch]

@Melissa M c C a l l

Are there any particular wines beyond the obvious (first growths, DRC) of which you’ve tasted counterfeits?

Some of the most common are Jayer, older high-end right bank wines - Petrus, Lafleur, Cheval Blanc - Monfortino, Rayas are the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

@Melissa M c C a l l

Have they been bottles you’ve purchased yourself?

Yes as well as others

@Melissa M c C a l l

Bottles at large tastings?

Yes as well as at small tastings and those in between.

@Melissa M c C a l l

Did you have any sense for what was actually in the glass?

One of the things I found most appalling in BV was that some of the doctored wines weren’t merely newer vintages, but chemistry experiments of cheap wines and whatever liqueurs might help simulate the desired flavors.

Many different fakes - some with much younger vintages from similar regions, sometimes similar vintages/regions from much inferior producers/vineyards, some of the chemistry experiments you mentioned and sometimes ridiculous fakes like what seemed like young Zin in 75 yo Bordeaux.

[John_Morris]

I had an 82 Gaja Barbaresco San Lorenzo a couple of years ago which I have doubts about. It was correct – plainly a good nebbiolo – but had no real character and no signs of maturity. It didn’t occur to me to question its authenticity at the time, but later it dawned on me that it could have been a fake. That wine would certainly be a likely candidate for counterfeiters and the label was extraordinarily pristine – and I bought it at Acker.

[Glenn_L_e_v_i_n_e]

without giving specifics i know some high-end servers who have presented a bottle to a table (usual target would be drunken young males in the obvious midst of boys night out) and uncork it only to then comment that the stemware is obviously sub-optimal to the exquisite wine ordered or bemoan the lack of a decanter. they then return with new stems and the bottle, or the wine in a decanter for the table.

if new stems the original wine was poured in a decanter in the back and a less expensive wine substituted in the uncorked bottle, if a decanter it is new wine simply poured in with the empty bottle presented along side.

now i have heard stories about the “substitute” wine, sometimes they say it can be so far from the original wine ordered (and eventually paid for) as to border on the ridiculous.

[Michael_Bowden]

@Glenn L e v i n e

without giving specifics i know some high-end servers who have presented a bottle to a table (usual target would be drunken young males in the obvious midst of boys night out) and uncork it only to then comment that the stemware is obviously sub-optimal to the exquisite wine ordered or bemoan the lack of a decanter. they then return with new stems and the bottle, or the wine in a decanter for the table.

if new stems the original wine was poured in a decanter in the back and a less expensive wine substituted in the uncorked bottle, if a decanter it is new wine simply poured in and the empty bottle presented along side.

now i have heard stories about the “substitute” wine, sometimes they say it can be so far from the original wine ordered (and eventually paid for) to border on the ridiculous.

Karma is a bitch.

[Bruce_Leiser_owitz]

I don’t drink much older Burgundy, but I have tasted older Bordeaux (1982 and before) where the wine in the glass looked and tasted FAR too young to match the vintage on the bottle. It hasn’t happened often, but it has happened.

Bruce

[Glenn_L_e_v_i_n_e]

@Michael Bowden

@Glenn L e v i n e

without giving specifics i know some high-end servers who have presented a bottle to a table (usual target would be drunken young males in the obvious midst of boys night out) and uncork it only to then comment that the stemware is obviously sub-optimal to the exquisite wine ordered or bemoan the lack of a decanter. they then return with new stems and the bottle, or the wine in a decanter for the table.

if new stems the original wine was poured in a decanter in the back and a less expensive wine substituted in the uncorked bottle, if a decanter it is new wine simply poured in with the empty bottle presented along side.

now i have heard stories about the “substitute” wine, sometimes they say it can be so far from the original wine ordered (and eventually paid for) as to border on the ridiculous.

Karma is a bitch.

just don’t ever let someone uncork a serious bottle of wine @ your table and they leave with it for any reason. final permutation on this theme is to present the bottle, make the stem or decanter excuse, and then leave with the bottle only to return to the table with the bottle uncorked along with stems/decanter. don’t fall for this one either.

[BobH]

I gave Elaine a bottle of 1962 Latour for her 40th birthday. It was in such perfect shape I was worried about a counterfeit, but in reality had just been stored well. Ironically, the cork came out in two pieces, and it broke right on the stamp, so all I could make out for sure was that it was a 196_ vintage.
However, it was the real thing quite obviously, and I have always kicked myself for not buying more than one bottle.

I also ran across those 4 bottles of 61 Latour and 2 bottles of 59 Latour that were sitting forgotten in that little old ladies basement for decades until she was getting ready to move. The labels were in terrible shape from years of high humidity, but the bottles were 100% the real deal. no doubt. no quesiton.

[Lyle_Fass]

@John Morris

I had an 82 Gaja Barbaresco San Lorenzo a couple of years ago which I have doubts about. It was correct – plainly a good nebbiolo – but had no real character and no signs of maturity. It didn’t occur to me to question its authenticity at the time, but later it dawned on me that it could have been a fake. That wine would certainly be a likely candidate for counterfeiters and the label was extraordinarily pristine – and I bought it at Acker.

Nope sounds exactly like Gaja. The MOST overrated producer in the world. And what he charges. Shame on you Angelo.

[Michael_Bowden]

@Lyle Fass

@John Morris

I had an 82 Gaja Barbaresco San Lorenzo a couple of years ago which I have doubts about. It was correct – plainly a good nebbiolo – but had no real character and no signs of maturity. It didn’t occur to me to question its authenticity at the time, but later it dawned on me that it could have been a fake. That wine would certainly be a likely candidate for counterfeiters and the label was extraordinarily pristine – and I bought it at Acker.

Nope sounds exactly like Gaja. The MOST overrated producer in the world. And what he charges. Shame on you Angelo.

MOST overrated…that can be up for debate.

[Paul_Jaouen]

I’ve had a couple. And a couple more suspect. I would think someone like Ray would run into quite a few with the amount of older wines he drinks. Some wines I just won’t buy at auction, like Rayas, because they are just too easy to counterfeit.

[M_M_c_C_a_l_l]

@Lyle Fass

Nope sounds exactly like Gaja. The MOST overrated producer in the world. And what he charges. Shame on you Angelo.

[Glenn_L_e_v_i_n_e]

@Lyle Fass

@John Morris

I had an 82 Gaja Barbaresco San Lorenzo a couple of years ago which I have doubts about. It was correct – plainly a good nebbiolo – but had no real character and no signs of maturity. It didn’t occur to me to question its authenticity at the time, but later it dawned on me that it could have been a fake. That wine would certainly be a likely candidate for counterfeiters and the label was extraordinarily pristine – and I bought it at Acker.

Nope sounds exactly like Gaja. The MOST overrated producer in the world. And what he charges. Shame on you Angelo.

+1, worst QPR on the planet.

[Bill_Tex_Landreth]

@Glenn L e v i n e

@Lyle Fass

@John Morris

I had an 82 Gaja Barbaresco San Lorenzo a couple of years ago which I have doubts about. It was correct – plainly a good nebbiolo – but had no real character and no signs of maturity. It didn’t occur to me to question its authenticity at the time, but later it dawned on me that it could have been a fake. That wine would certainly be a likely candidate for counterfeiters and the label was extraordinarily pristine – and I bought it at Acker.

Nope sounds exactly like Gaja. The MOST overrated producer in the world. And what he charges. Shame on you Angelo.

+1, worst QPR on the planet.

Ever hear of Ghost Horse?

[AlexHay]

@Bill Tex Landreth

@Glenn L e v i n e

@Lyle Fass

Nope sounds exactly like Gaja. The MOST overrated producer in the world. And what he charges. Shame on you Angelo.

+1, worst QPR on the planet.

Ever hear of Ghost Horse?

Yup. I sure have. At $5,000.00 per bottle I thought the several hundred thousands I paid (won’t say how much) was cheap. Turns out I got me a counterfeit barrel of Ghost Horse. THAT was an expensive mistake!

[CFu]

@Michael Bowden

@Glenn L e v i n e

without giving specifics i know some high-end servers who have presented a bottle to a table (usual target would be drunken young males in the obvious midst of boys night out) and uncork it only to then comment that the stemware is obviously sub-optimal to the exquisite wine ordered or bemoan the lack of a decanter. they then return with new stems and the bottle, or the wine in a decanter for the table.

if new stems the original wine was poured in a decanter in the back and a less expensive wine substituted in the uncorked bottle, if a decanter it is new wine simply poured in and the empty bottle presented along side.

now i have heard stories about the “substitute” wine, sometimes they say it can be so far from the original wine ordered (and eventually paid for) to border on the ridiculous.

Karma is a bitch.

what does this have to do with Karma? It’s okay to screw people over cause they are young and drunk in a boys night out?

[Michael_Bowden]

@Charlie Fu

@Michael Bowden

@Glenn L e v i n e

without giving specifics i know some high-end servers who have presented a bottle to a table (usual target would be drunken young males in the obvious midst of boys night out) and uncork it only to then comment that the stemware is obviously sub-optimal to the exquisite wine ordered or bemoan the lack of a decanter. they then return with new stems and the bottle, or the wine in a decanter for the table.

if new stems the original wine was poured in a decanter in the back and a less expensive wine substituted in the uncorked bottle, if a decanter it is new wine simply poured in and the empty bottle presented along side.

now i have heard stories about the “substitute” wine, sometimes they say it can be so far from the original wine ordered (and eventually paid for) to border on the ridiculous.

Karma is a bitch.

what does this have to do with Karma? It’s okay to screw people over cause they are young and drunk in a boys night out?

Karma as in the server who is cheating those people out of the bottle they ordered and paid for will have it coming to them.