Corked Champagne--what is the right recourse?

[larry_schaffer]

I’m gonna have to just say no to the concept of decreasing your risk of TCA if the bottle is stored standing up. If you remember a recent thread on corks, there was new research showing that you do not need to store wines on their side since there is enough moisture in the head space to prevent the cork from drying out. I still disagree with that, but the general concept is that that moisture is still allowing ‘transfer’ of corklins, or little cork derived molecules, that are adding ‘phenolics’ to the wine. If that is the case, then TCA would be transferred as well.

And as I’ve said and many others have as well, the retailer needs to make good if that’s who you bought it from - and they can fight the fight from there. And if you choose not to push this, as many others choose not to, then this type of ‘not taking responsibility’ will continue . . .

Cheers.

[larry_schaffer]

Two words, my friend - screw caps

Can you use screw caps for Champagne? that’d be interesting to see.

In Larry’s case, i’d say it’s 100% retailer’s issue…

Though I have not seen ‘high end’ sparkling under screw cap, I certainly have seen half bottles and splits of sparkling under screw cap.

Wonder if Aussies use any on theirs - anyone know?

Cheers.

[Mark_Y]

Though I have not seen ‘high end’ sparkling under screw cap, I certainly have seen half bottles and splits of sparkling under screw cap.

Wonder if Aussies use any on theirs - anyone know?

Cheers.

So screw cap can withstand the pressure, and when i open it, it won’t go KABOOOOM?
cool! i need to look for one to try!

[GregP]

Frank,

Next time you buy Champagne, and especially at this price, try to find out how the wine was stored, storing them on a side, as still wines are, usually results in a corked bottle. I found out the hard way, years ago, with a rare and expensive bottle ($110 back in 1999). Never stored a sparkler on a side since, and all my beer under similar corks is also stored upright.

This can’t be right can it? How can storing it sideways introduce TCA?

I suppose more contact with cork could lead to more TCA exposure. Though, I can’t imagine that was worded correctly, since there’s no way that storing champagne on its side “usually results in a corked bottle.”

Worded right, and as explained to me. Something about carbonation that results in TCA no matter what if Champagne is stored on its side. By way more experienced drinkers than I was at the time, their first question to me was “How did you store it?” Just passing this along, your money and your decision, I know what mine is since. Short term may not matter, long term always does.

[Russell_Faulkner]

Someone should tell Bollinger. Every bottle is sealed with cork for secondary fermentation and stored on its side in their cellars.

[jbray23]

Though I have not seen ‘high end’ sparkling under screw cap, I certainly have seen half bottles and splits of sparkling under screw cap.

Wonder if Aussies use any on theirs - anyone know?

Cheers.

So screw cap can withstand the pressure, and when i open it, it won’t go KABOOOOM?
cool! i need to look for one to try!

Star caps, all the rage in pet nat…

[Mark_Y]

Carbonation results in the creation of a chemical compound that previously didn’t exist? Wow. Mind blown.
(Ok not really because I’m not sure I buy that theory but that is a wild theory indeed).

[jbray23]

Frank,

I’ve made my impression known in another thread but the retailer should make you whole, in turn the wholesaler credits the retailer and importer credits the whole seller… we have built in cost just for this instance, if the retailer you are dealing with can’t get credit from the whole seller than that whole seller is shitty…

This should not at all be an issue… it’s not really freddy’s Fault, cork is cork but at every level samples and waste are built in to the cost of the end product, if not, someone along the line is being outrageously greedy…

[jcoley3]

The correct recourse is the retailer to take care of it, who would return it to distributor, who would return to importer.

If this was bought outside of that line of succession, then the retailer is just building trust with a customer and likely eating the cost.

Kris is right on both counts. At retail, I have take back corked bottles where my customer assumed it wouldn’t be my problem either. It has never once been worth explaining why it might be.

[jcoley3]

Two words, my friend - screw caps

Can you use screw caps for Champagne? that’d be interesting to see.

In Larry’s case, i’d say it’s 100% retailer’s issue…

Though I have not seen ‘high end’ sparkling under screw cap, I certainly have seen half bottles and splits of sparkling under screw cap.

Wonder if Aussies use any on theirs - anyone know?

Cheers.

Larry,

There are some Champagne producers who prefer using cork for aging wines under tirage for the oxygen transfer effects. Others use crown caps for aging prior to release.

My experience with AUS and NZ sparkling wine producers have been commercially released with corks. Lower pressure wines can get crown-capped on release, but that is usually commercial Prosecco.

[GregP]

My bad, was thinking of oxidation. That bottle of 1995 Salon was my first experience with serious Champagne, oxidized, and when I asked those who have been drinking it for a long time it was the first thing they asked, storage upright or not.

One of online articles: “Sparkling wine should be stored upright because the cork will get too moist and allow oxygen in that will make the wine too fizzy and spoiled”.

Pretty much how it was explained to me a good while back. So, not TCA issue as I posted above.

[Mark_Y]

Ahhh that makes sense now Greg!

[Russell_Faulkner]

Not to me!

[Otto_Forsberg]

My bad, was thinking of oxidation. That bottle of 1995 Salon was my first experience with serious Champagne, oxidized, and when I asked those who have been drinking it for a long time it was the first thing they asked, storage upright or not.

One of online articles: “Sparkling wine should be stored upright because the cork will get too moist and allow oxygen in that will make the wine too fizzy and spoiled”.

Pretty much how it was explained to me a good while back. So, not TCA issue as I posted above.

Oxygen makes sparkling wine too fizzy and spoiled?

[GregP]

My bad, was thinking of oxidation. That bottle of 1995 Salon was my first experience with serious Champagne, oxidized, and when I asked those who have been drinking it for a long time it was the first thing they asked, storage upright or not.

One of online articles: “Sparkling wine should be stored upright because the cork will get too moist and allow oxygen in that will make the wine too fizzy and spoiled”.

Pretty much how it was explained to me a good while back. So, not TCA issue as I posted above.

Oxygen makes sparkling wine too fizzy and spoiled?

Yeah, this sounded strange to me as well. Main point is that corks do get too soft and allow oxidation in sparkling wine. Short term, not really an issue, long term it does happen. Expensive lesson for me back then, but advice and explanation came from people who do know wine. Like I said, your money and your decision, not telling you what you should do, or not, with your wine.

As for TCA, if you look at some numbers provided lately, TCA in Champagne happens more often than in still wines. Don’t know what drives that, but 5-7% rate is not a good one no matter how you look at it.

Not sure why Frank is only offered a partial refund/credit, back in my retail days we would have fully refunded the purchase and then back billed the wholesaler/distributor, that was part of the monthly inventory sync up. Its just a way of life in high end wine shops. Even with some still wines with excessive trapped CO2, if a customer demanded refund no question would be asked as its a technical/production fault in still wines.

[Otto_Forsberg]

Yeah, this sounded strange to me as well. Main point is that corks do get too soft and allow oxidation in sparkling wine. Short term, not really an issue, long term it does happen. Expensive lesson for me back then, but advice and explanation came from people who do know wine. Like I said, your money and your decision, not telling you what you should do, or not, with your wine.

As for TCA, if you look at some numbers provided lately, TCA in Champagne happens more often than in still wines. Don’t know what drives that, but 5-7% rate is not a good one no matter how you look at it.

Not sure why Frank is only offered a partial refund/credit, back in my retail days we would have fully refunded the purchase and then back billed the wholesaler/distributor, that was part of the monthly inventory sync up. Its just a way of life in high end wine shops. Even with some still wines with excessive trapped CO2, if a customer demanded refund no question would be asked as its a technical/production fault in still wines.

I get the oxidation part but for the life of me I can’t understand how oxygen could make any wine - sparkling or still - fizzy.

And although I’ve had a corked Champagne every now and then, from my personal experience I’ve noticed TCA in Champagne more seldom than in still wines. Care to share where did you get that 5-7% TCA in Champagne? It sounds awfully high.

[Carlos_Delpin]

Frank, I would write to the importer. The importer is the link between winery and market and is the “local” owner of the brand.

[Frank_Murray_III]

I appreciate the responses and thank you for the input. I will have another discussion with the retailer to get some clarity, based on your suggestions.

I gave this topic more thought last night and landed back with the premise of why isn’t the winery responsible? Why in this space do the other parties have to take ownership, such as the retailer or distributor? The product was made by the winery, based on their freedom to decide how to make it, and what inputs to use within its production. They originated the product, which in this case, was not successful because of the spoilage. And further, why is it so hard for a winery to at least reach out and say, “Hey, sorry you had this experience, here is what you need to do. Contact X or Y and they can address the issue for you”. Or, tell me “we’re sorry but this happens and we are not accountable for it”.

But to be given the option to not say anything because they are small, or they’re far away, to me that is an excuse. Do something, show some kind of accountability and concern–this is how you treat people.

[Sherr1_Shap1r0]

I appreciate the responses and thank you for the input. I will have another discussion with the retailer to get some clarity, based on your suggestions.

I gave this topic more thought last night and landed back with the premise of why isn’t the winery responsible? Why in this space do the other parties have to take ownership, such as the retailer or distributor? The product was made by the winery, based on their freedom to decide how to make it, and what inputs to use within its production. They originated the product, which in this case, was not successful because of the spoilage. And further, why is it so hard for a winery to at least reach out and say, “Hey, sorry you had this experience, here is what you need to do. Contact X or Y and they can address the issue for you”. Or, tell me “we’re sorry but this happens and we are not accountable for it”.

But to be given the option to not say anything because they are small, or they’re far away, to me that is an excuse. Do something, show some kind of accountability and concern–this is how you treat people.

Frank - I am 100% on the same page with you. I look to the winery, regardless of where I purchased it. It’s a bit harder when it’s from another country and not necessarily a linear line to your local retailer, but that shouldn’t absolve the winery from their responsibility or from, at the very least, acknowledging your attempt to reach out to them. In the end, you’ll probably not get a refund, and if it were me, I’d never buy anything from that producer again. Not the right result for sure.

[M.Kaplan]

If you buy a corked bag of carrots, do you take it up with the grocery store where you bought it or seek a refund from the farm that grew and packaged it? I’m trying to think of any consumable product that consumers routinely seek redress from the producer rather than the retailer and I can’t think of any.