Corkage - the obvious answer...

WINE TALK
21

Still a one-off example and totally subjective. Please show me how Chris’s universal formula applies for all restaurants.

22

First, I apologize for being snarky.
Second, I thought I had a specific angle/philosophy that was worth more than just used toilet paper. It was an economically rational price model (not necessarily without need for tweaking) and not an arbitrary price. So no need to be a know-it-all.

Every wine geeks wet dream is “no corkage.” (So to say that (and the toilet paper comment) are close-minded and insulting.) In an effort to work restaurant owners toward more beneficial policies for both themselves and consumers, the brief philosphy I noted seems more realistic than “no corkage” or “sky-high corkage.”

(For perspective, I have two favorite local restaurants. One (Schoolhouse at Cannondale) has (reasonable, IMHO) $20 corkage (appropriate given a limited wine list - it’s a small place - but a real motivator to go back often, because the food is great). The other (Paci), as far as I know, doesn’t allow corkage - but it is also a fine restaurant with a stellar Italian list.)

Frankly, I think restaurants with great, deep, broad lists probably shouldn’t offer it at all if they book up anyway - if they have invested in a “long-term” cellar, they deserve a return on that investment directly from wine sales. The issues are the (vast majority of) restaurants in the middle that don’t put that effort (or money) into their lists, in which wine is a beverage and not a customer draw. And I think they are blowing it when they don’t get with the program.

When I was ITB I once urged a good customer to go to low corkage because it would’ve jump-started their business (even if in the short-term it would have hurt mine). But people generally think month to month instead of in the long term. There is the initial almost completely emotional “if I let people bring their wine, they won’t buy mine” response - which isn’t an economically rational decision. Given that many restaurants are personal projects of passion, I have little doubt that corkage policy decisions are often approached emotionally, rather than rationally.

People are free to disagree, but where you are speaking like you know, but IMHO are dead wrong is with the “call your legislator” approach. NO - consumers have more power with the dollars they spend than they do with their votes. Collective efforts that reach the ears of restaurant owners (the ones who have the legal option of corkage, of course) can have an effect. But it is difficult to rally individual consumers (less difficult to rally industry trade, distributors with lots of cash, etc.) But to wipe ones hands and say nothing can be done - well that approach is worth less than the toilet paper that I just used, ya know?

But if you have relevant input, I’m all ears. Though I was less interested in starting a “let’s all whine about corkage” thread and more interested in throwing out an economically rational approach to corkage.

23

Chris,

Thanks for the essay version, but your argument still seems to distill down to “The restaurant should offer X corkage or less because that is what I or my perceived view of ‘The Consumer’ deems fair.”

Your argument sucks. Shape it up.

24

It can even happen to you Serge, lol [thankyou.gif] [pillow-fight.gif]

FWIW , in my opinion, corkage should be based on the level of the restaurant. For higher end restaurants it should be $25-$40 depending on Geo. For lower end resto’s it should be $10-$20 . There really is no argument. These numbers is what I have seen all over the country. I also believe that if a restaurant has that particular wine on the list, you should be forbidden from bringing it.

25

I’m fine with a sliding corkage scale based on whatever - I once paid $90 corkage, and given the prices on the list and the wine that I brought, I thought it was a reasonable economic compromise.

26

Say wha???

Whachoo talkin’ 'bout Willis?

27

+1

Brent, not a “one-off” philosophy. If restaurant has a anti-customer policy about wine (3x retail mark-up or anything more than $20 corkage) then I will go elsewhere. If I am locked-in to the place because of friends or family, I will drink a SINGLE beer.

Jeff, the “rational business/economic explanation” works for Boomers with little wine savvy, not so much for a Millennial with an iPhone app that will tell them the real world cost of any wine on your list. They will see how much you are trying to gouge them and take it as an insult. 'Tis the reality of a coming generation that sees prestige in finding the best deals, not spending the most money.

Establishments that welcome my business with a fairly priced wine list (1.5x to 1.75x) and/or fair corkage ($20 or less) are the places that I frequent. Restaurants that see wine drinkers as an eating ATM machine will not see a dime from me.

28

What on earth are you talking about? I don’t know ONE restaurant in Manhattan with a 1.5 to 1.75 markup. If somebody does, please PM me. In fantasy land where all restaurants operate to lose money, we can all buy wine close to retail prices or have them serve us our own wine for 20 bucks, but in the real world, I am unfamiliar with such practices. As I said before, just seeing restaurants come down to 2x would probably stimulate wine sales and quiet the corkage chorus.

29

Oh sorry, I forgot - Manhattan is the center of the world. rolleyes And you’re somehow proud/happy about that fact?? [scratch.gif]

Fantasy land is California. Yes, we know it’s better here.

30

I take back the nice things I said. You’re being a jackass with nothing remotely insightful to contribute on the subject - probably because you don’t have any.

ITB? What, a somm with an overpriced list? God help the business.

31

totally true in so many places

32

don’t tell them about our land of opportunity, they wouldn’t believe there’s a place where you can eat fine dining and be charged $10 a bottle for corkage. UFOS!~!~!

33

It makes it a little harder when you factor in NYC rents/operating costs vis a vis other markets…I am not defending the mark ups, but when comparing mark ups, you also need to take a look at the underlying cost and revenue structures… NYC is a unique animal…

34

Actually, while Manhattan is a unique animal, I don’t recall being in a restaurant anywhere, including California, with 1.5x markups on wine. Please name a few. I’d love to start a database.

35

NY is a unique animal??? really? other than being the financial center of the world, how else is it so unique when it comes to restaurants and wine? I spent half my life in NYC. Sorry to say , it is not as unique you would like to think? I think Moscovite’s would say the same thing about Moscow… have you checked the rents and real estate there recently? or how about London? Tokyo? NYC Is not unique other than attitude (NY State Of Mind). I am not knocking NY. I love it there, I grew up there, I go there on business all the time, but it certainly is NOT unique when it comes to restaurants and fine wine… I have found restaurants in NYC with somewhat reasonable wine prices. One that comes to mind is Porter House in TWC. They have some relatively reasonable prices on some wines. Some are out of this world, but those are the “recognizable names” by those who “name shop” a wine list.

Oh by the way, in case you NY’ers didn’t know. Smith and Wollensky’s WON’T charge you a corkage fee on the first bottle. They do this across the country! Another secret. Call Morton’s tell them you have a nice sized dinner party and most want to go to S & W for dinner because they won’t charge corkage. The manager will get on the phone and say “Bring your party here, we won’t charge you either”. I have an annual wine dinner with my childhood friends every year at Morton’s in mid town. We bring like 5-6 bottles of wine and they do NOT charge us a corkage fee? (now a crossover from the tipping thread). We tip the waiter VERY WELL , probably one of the best tips he gets all month and we slide something to the manager as well. Every year they welcome us with open arms…

36



Now children, play nice together when you are in the sandbox. The adults do not like it when your yelling and screaming make it impossible for us to discuss important matters.

My view on corkage is simple. It’s their restaurant. They can charge what they want. It’s my Visa/Mastercard. I can charge where I want. There are some expensive restaurants I like that refuse to allow me to bring my own wine (e.g., Del Friscos). I go there less frequently than I might otherwise. If it makes economic sense to them to attract people like me, they can do so, and if not, it’s only dead cow on a plate, after all. No big deal. I just can’t enjoy a bottle of wine when the price on the list says “$500” and I have the same wine in my cellar and I paid $50 for it.

37

Brix Restaurant - Napa Valley.

Arturo’s - Boca Raton, Fl. ( had Phelps Insignia 2002 - paid $230)

38

Bottega in Yountville has a wine list that is close to full retail (perhaps 10% higher). Not discounted, but really not absurd either. Heard that Michael Chiarello wanted to abolish corkage by having an approachable list with good prices.

39

I believe the markups at Mermaid Inn and Landmark are even less than that.

40

Let’s start with 80 to 90% of the restaurants in Napa/Sonoma County. If we’re in the mood for seafood, Passionfish in Pacific Grove always delivers. Thai in Las Vegas brings us to the Lotus of Siam…