continuing the discussion on old wines

WINE TALK
21

Dear François,

as you will know I generally agree with you - I myself prefer most wines with a certain age …

What makes a great wine is the addition of two factors : the way to make wine, and, ad min equal, the age. <<

I would add at least two more factors:

  • the origin/pedigree/terroir
  • the vintage

I assume and I´m quite sure that you store and drink mostly wines from high quality origins, let´s say Bordeaux from Pauillac or Pomerol, not Bordeaux superieur, Romanée-St-Vivant/LA Tâche … and rarely Hautes Cotes de Beaune … Moulin-a-Vent and not Beaujolais Villages …

2nd: you talked about great vintages like 1961, 1929 etc. … not about 1965 or 1977 (except Port).

Neither wines from “simple” terroirs nor from mean vintages are IMHO meant to age for several decades … after a certain point of maturity most won´t gain additional quality and interest - but simply lose fruit and getting worse. But even these simpler wines I prefer with a certain age, in these cases better 5 to 10 years. sometimes 15 years instead of only 2 years - but not 25+ years.

Last fall I opened a reknowned Bordeaux labelled 1975, only to find that it was faked, being the same wine (just as the capsule indicated) but from vintage 1977 … although with a very good fill it certainly was better 20+ years ago … but still drinkable …
Many more examples … and you know that I prepare my bottles carefully with enough airing time …

But it has to be said that I had the pleasure to drink several old and exciting bottles with you … and some of them are still highlights in my drinking history … [cheers.gif] flirtysmile

22

‘I think that Robert Parker made a very bad service to wine when he introduced the concept of plateau of maturity followed by a decline.’
Absolutely, that is an often nonsensical notion, which is not to say that wines cannot be too old, for which cork failure is more often than not to blame.
There is a great difference, though, between old wines that taste young and old wines that taste old. The latter is a difficult taste to acquire but an even harder one to sustain because old wine very often tastes more than anything of old wine.

23

Thanks for all the valuable insights Francois. Much appreciated.

Question: What is that special method you use to open bottles which works miracles?

24

Well, I suppose as always it depends on the wine. I remember a Haut Brion 1961 brought by a very generous neighbour that smelt like heaven and drank superbly… Not sure it will improve…but maybe it will.
I also remember a glass 1919 Graves superieures drank in Pages in January in Paris from a generous donator [scratch.gif] which had consumed all its sweetness and was very mushroomy… very much enjoyed… but how do you compare it to when it was a sweet wine?

25

I excerpted that specific element from your post because I find a similarity in a lot of old wines. They pick up this element that I call “bottle sweetness.” It’s a similar taste across different types of wine. I see the same thing in Bordeaux, Burgundy, Barolo, Rioja, etc. (so it’s not just a “B” thing). I adore it when I taste it, but it’s not anything distinctive from the origin of the wine from what I can tell. It’s some general development of good, old, red wine.

A tasting I was at last month that included 40-50 year old wines (all bought by the host on release) from multiple regions had multiple bottles that had developed that same note.

26

If he does not see your post, do a search for Audouze Method. It’s sometimes referred to as slow-ox.

27

Perfect, many thanks. Found it!

28

Answer to John : The small years create more problems than great years to provide great wines. But the differences are less significant for great wines.
For example a 1957 Latour will be more inspiring than what was promised when 1957 was put on the market.
But a small wine of 1957 will not make miracles even if there are exceptions.

29

A question for the board on storing old wines. At age 30 I have a somewhat unique opportunity to buy wines from the 50s and 60s through WineBid, Cellaraiders, Blacksmith, etc, and maybe be drinking 100+ year old wines in my retirement like our friend Francis. I’ve found lots of reasonably priced ‘66 BDX with positive feedback on CT indicating they could go the distance - just one example. I wonder if there’s anything special you can do to store these wines for the long haul. I have no intention of getting any bottles recorked but I worry about dry corks, low fill levels, and possible seepage in a relatively low-humidity cellar (45-50%). I’ve seen most people say that saran wrapping bottles would be a waste, even though intuitively id think that limiting exposure and air exchange, even wrapping just the neck of the bottle, might increase longevity. What say the board experts?

30

But then…why only drink the “great” wines (that we all know are great and hold no surprises)? Wouldn’t if be more meaningful - if you were into really, really old wines - to seek out ALL wines to enjoy them in their golden years? For instance, where is that ethereal 50-year old verdicchio or 78-year Crozes Hermitage to wax rhapsodic about?

31

There’s probably much less of that around to begin with, as nobody kept them for aging. 50 year old Verdicchio is likely around due to forgetfulness, not intent.

32

Most wines are not produced for cellaring but for early consumption. That is a fact. Some wines get better with age. Especially when they emerge from a good vintage. The best wines from Bordeaux, Burgundy, Northern Rhone, Barolo and so forth come to mind. But what is better for me is worse for my neighbor.

I am in the camp of those who think: better a bit too young than too old. I am not an admirer of some oxidation in my wine. Others are more tolerant. I am not. And really old wine tend to develop some oxidation. Especially when not ideally stored during their entire life. Not to speak about the risk that corks get defective with time and so forth.

It is difficult to make statements but a top Pauillac can get better in its first 30 years of life. Beyond that – I am sceptic. With a few exceptions depending on the vintage (1986 i.e.).

I know that many people get a bit romantic when an old wine will be opened. Some may loose their objectivity. But age is not a quality per se. IMO.

BTW: Why do you come up every few years with this same topic, Francois? We did discuss this same issue several times already. Without coming to a consensus. I guess there will never be a uniform opinion in the field of taste.

33

Robert,
The year 1982 is just an indication which has not a specific value. Régions and wines age differently. It was just to give an idea.

34

Gerhard,
When I began to be interested in old wines, I had not no much money and I bought many wines in the small appellations and in the small years. And it has never bothered me.
As you say, a weak year will never attain the level of a great year, but if you know it, you can enjoy the wine for what it is. One day I opened a wine whose label said “Bourgogne”. There is no lower appellation existing in Burgundy except “Vin de Table”, but which cannot pretend to be named Burgundy. It was from 1928 and it was a very exciting surprise.

For the other comments, I agree with you.

35

David,
As it is your testimony, I respect it, but I think the contrary.
I was invited one day at Chateau Latour and we had a blind tasting of two wines, Lafite and Latour, presented for years like 1934, 1945 and 1949 if I remember well. And I think that I recognized every time which one was Lafite or Latour.
If these wines, as you say, would have the same taste, I would not have felt the difference.
And if you were right, I would have abandoned my passion, if the same taste was repeated.

36

Andrew,
Mortality exists in my cellar. I am against recorking except in very specific occasions.
My way of thinking is : if you think that a bottle begins to lose wine, then drink it.
A way to keep bottles longer is to wax the top. It is not so easy to do.

37

François,

I do not think the old wine sweetness is all that is there, but it is often a common element.

Trust me, if all older wines tasted exactly the same, I would always buy the cheapest one!!

38

It is sometimes said that I drink only « label wines » which is not the case. For the fun I made a list of wines from 1900 to 1948 which are not “label wines”, sometimes because they have no label, no year indicated, or because the producer or the negociant do not belong to the ones which chased by amateurs. It you are interested, read this list because it shows that I took the risk to explore the unknown or the non-hype. It is ranked per year and the sign # means estimated. What is put for each wine is what I could read :

Château Grand Puy Ducasse 1900 - Château La Louvière 1900 - Domaine de Pougnon 1900 - Tertre d’Augay 1900 - Saint Julien Clos St Albert 1900 - Château La Tour de Mons Margaux 1900 - Barolo Nebbiolo 1900 - Château illisible (probable Beychevelle) vers 1900 # - Bourgogne très vieux vers 1900 # - Chambertin (mis en bouteille en 1906) producteur inconnu 1904 - Chambertin ?? 1904 - Vin inconnu (Pauillac ?) 1904 - « old Burgundy 1870 to 1920 » Maison Jadot - 1904 # - Château Bahans Haut-Brion 1907 -

supposé Château Margaux vers 1910 - Vin des Côtes 1911 - Château Lanessan Haut-Médoc 1911 - Corton H. Cerf Père & Fils à Nuits 1911 - Mazoyères-Chambertin M. Chevillot # 1911 # - Château Toumalin Canon Fronsac - 1912 - Le Jura, Saint-émilion Réserve Caves Calon 1913 - Château Moulin Riche 1914 - Chambertin Giraux 1915 - Clos de Vougeot Geisweiller 1915 - Clos Vougeot Nicolas 1915 - Nuits Cailles Morin 1915 - Chambolle Musigny dom ? 1915 - Poulsard Bourdy 1915 - Bonnes-Mares, Charles Bernard 1915 - Romanée Saint-Vivant Gaudemet-Chanut 1915 - Corton domaine inconnu 1915 - Clos de la Perrière Fixin premier cru 1915 # - Savigny les Beaune Fromageot Langlais 1915 # - Château Durfort-Vivens 1916 - Château Cantemerle - 1918 - Dom Berenguer Solera De Muller Priorat grenache 1918 - Clos Vougeot Meunier 1918 - Gevrey Chambertin 1919 - Gevrey Chambertin Ménétrier 1919 - Nuits Saint Georges Moillard 1919 - Saint Emilion Réserve des caves Courtiol 1919 - Chambertin ? 1919 # -

vin rouge probable Languedoc 1920 - Domaine de la Trappe Vin rouge d’Algérie 1920 - Clos Papal Châteauneuf-du-Pape 1920 # - Château Croque Michotte Saint Emilion 1921 - Saint-Péray sec Milliand et Mayoux 1921 - Franc Clos des Jacobins 1921 - Clos-Batailley, Bounin Propriétaire à Targon 1921 - Château d’Egmont Ludon en magnum 1922 - Hermitage Salavert Frères 1922 - Grands Echézeaux Nicolas 1923 - Pommard Marius Meulien 1923 - Bourgogne - nom inconnu - Chambertin ? 1923 - Pommard 1923 - Royal Kebir, vin d’Algérie 1923 - Beaujolais Tête 1923 - Chambertin Côtes Saint-Jacques vigneron inconnu 1923 - Gevrey Chambertin P Misserey 1923 - Châteauneuf du Pape Isnard - 1924 - Clos des Jacobins, Saint Emilion - 1924 - Magnum de Château Grand Lambert, Veuve Blanchet Ména, Pauillac 1924 - Château d’Arsac Margaux 1925 - Nuits Saint Georges les Vaucrains Michelot Prop. 1926 - Pommard Epenots Colomb Maréchal 1926 - Château Corbin Michotte Saint Emilion 1926 - Château les grands Rosiers Pauillac 1926 - “BAGES” Pauillac, Montré & Cie 1926 - Chambolle Musigny Albert Brenot 1926 - Pommard “les Charmots” Léon Violland 1926 - Nuits-Saint-Georges Van der Meullen 1926 - Nuits Saint Georges Ligeret 1926 # - Châteauneuf du Pape Clos du Calvaire 1927 - Château Desmirail Margaux 1928 - Château Junayme 1928 - Château Lagrange - 1928 - Morey Saint Denis Chauvenet et Fils 1928 - Côtes d’Agly Roussillon hôtel Claridge 1928 - Beaune Camille Giraud 1928 - Rilly rouge 1928 - Volnay Cuvée Blondeau Hospices de Beaune 1928 - Château Pibran 1928 - Clos Vougeot Paul Dargent 1928 - Château Pailhas Saint-Emilion 1928 - Clos des Grandes Murailles (ancien Clos des Moines) Saint-émilion Commandant Malen propriétaire 1928 - Beaune Theurons Vincent Frères 1928 - Château Cos-Labory Saint-Estèphe 1928 - Charmes-Chambertin L. Gauthier 1928 - Châteauneuf-du-Pape Chartron 1928 - Cune Rioja clarete 1928 - Santenay Gravières Jessiaume Père & Fils 1928 - Beaune Marconnets Nicolas 1929 - Beaune Masson 1929 - Chambertin Clos de Bèze Corcol 1929 - Château Bouscaut en magnum 1929 - Château Chauvin Saint Emilion 1929 - Château du Peyrat Capian 1929 - Château Fanning La Fontaine 1929 - Côte Rôtie Paul Etienne 1929 - Saint-Nicolas de Bourgueil Nicolas 1929 - Santenay Louis Grivot 1929 - Château Haut-Bages Averous 1929 - Corton L. Soualle et E. De Bailliencourt 1929 - Château Gadet Médoc 1929 - Fleurie Domaine Poncié 1929 - Richebourg provenance inconnue 1929 - Corton “cuvée B” Brossaud 1929 - Cahors Clos de Gamot (Jouffreau) 1929 - Pommard " Grand vin d’origine " 1929 - Juliénas caves Nicolas 1929 - Château Puyblanquet Saint-Emilion 1929 - Clos Vougeot (Arnoux) 1929 - Clos Vougeot (Boyer) 1929 - Château La Haye Saint-Estèphe 1929 - Corton, Emile Chandessais, négociant à Fontaines, près Mercurey 1929 - Nuits-Saint-Georges Paul Destrée et Fils 1929 - Musigny 1929 -

Bouzy rouge Veuve Clicquot Ponsardin années 1930 - vin inconnu sans étiquette année inconnue 1930 # - Savigny « les Vergelesses » cuvée Fouquerand Hospices de Beaune 1931 - Volnay Camille Giroud 1933 - Gevrey Chambertin Marius Meulien 1933 - Châteauneuf-du-Pape J. Mommessin 1933 Chateau de Bensse Médoc 1933 - Pommard Beault Forgeot 1934 - Château Haut-Bages Averous 1934 - Fixin Clos du Chapitre Morin & Fils 1934 - Beaune Duvergey Taboureau 1934 - Château Petit Gravet Saint-émilion 1934 - Vosne Romanée producteur inconnu 1934 - Beaune, B. Chemardin négociant 1934 - Pomerol mise de Luze 1934 - Moulins de Calon Médoc 1934 - Chambolle Musigny Pasquier-Desvignes 1934 - Château La Rose Anseillan contigu Lafite Pauillac 1934 - Chambolle Musigny A. R. Barrière frères 1934 - Bourgogne Réserve de la Chèvre Noire Charles d’Aubigney 1934 - Charmes Chambertin Corcol - 1935 - Fleurie Chanson Père et Fils 1935 - Frédéric Lung Alger 1935 - Moulin à Vent Chanson Père et Fils 1935 - Gevrey-Chambertin 1er Cru « La Combe aux Moines » Domaine Faiveley 1935 - Gevrey Chambertin La Combe aux Moines 1935 - Barolo Cappellano 1935 - Côtes de Provence Domaine de Saint Martin - 1936 - Château Bensse Médoc 1936 - Corton Calvet - 1937 - Gevrey Chambertin Tramier et Fils 1937 - Pommard Rugiens Terrand 1937 - Château La Rose Anseillan 1937 - Nuits Saint Georges Jaboulet Vercherre 1937 - Richebourg “vieux ceps” H. Jaboulet Vercherre 1937 - Vin rouge de Vertus Pierre Péters 1937 - Château La Louvière 1ères Graves Léognan Daniel Sanders rouge 1937 - Barolo Borgogno Riserva 1937 - Volnay Pierre Léger 1937 - Frédéric Lung, vin d’Algérie 1938 - Vin du Château Katsunuma Japon 1938 - Royal Kebir Algérie 1938 - Sénéclauze Vin Fin rouge d’Algérie présumé 1939 -

Côtes du Jura Louis Cartier rouge 1940 # - Arbois Pupillin rouge Louis Cartier 1940 # - Mercurey Château de Chamirey 1er grand cru années 1940 # - Cahors, Caors Rolland et Cie 1942 - Château Trottevieille 1943 - Sables Saint-Emilion 1943 - Château Pontet-Clauzure, saint-émilion 1943 - Fleurie 1943 - Château Roudier, Montagne Saint-Émilion Roudier 1943 - Moulin-à-Vent Patriarche 1943 - Fleurie Girodit-Henry 1943 - Vosne Romanée E & D Moingeon Frères 1943 # - Châteauneuf du Pape Louis Max 1945 - Moulin à Vent Thomas Bassot 1945 - Château Lafitte Camblanes Premières Côtes de Bordeaux 1945 - Château Larcis Ducasse 1945 - Vosne Romanée Réserve Reine Pédauque 1945 - Château La Pointe 1945 - Osmara Dom. De Feudeck, Comte Hubert d’Hespel Prop. à Jemmapes (Algérie) 1945 - Volnay Champy P&F 1945 - Hermitage E. Vérilhac 1945 - Château Saint-Julien, Saint-Emilion 1945 - Nuits-Saint-Georges François Gilles 1945 - Château Crusquet Premières Côtes de Blaye 1945 - Sidi Brahim Vigna rouge Algérie 1945 - Barolo Fontanafredda 1945 - Bourgogne inconnu 1945 # - Bourgueil Domaine P. Marchand 1946 - Sillery rouge de Pommery 1946 - Fleurie Clos de la Roilette Maurice Crozet 1946 - Châteauneuf-du-Pape Clos de la Petite Gardiole 1946 - Bourgueil André Lafoy - 1947 - Château Houissant Saint Estèphe - 1947 - Château Matras 1947 - Château Tertre d’Augay Saint Emilion - 1947 - Royal Kebir Frédéric Lung Alger 1947 - Bourgogne grande réserve Comte A. De la Rochefoucauld 1947 - Clos des Jacobins 1947 - Vray Canon Boyer Canon Fronsac 1947 - Gevrey Chambertin Jantot 1947 - Moulin à Vent Genard 1947 - Château Petit Faurie de Soutard 1947 - Pommard Refène Domaine Charles Gitraud 1947 - Monthélie 1947 - Côtes du Jura rouge Jean Bourdy 1947 - Chambolle-Musigny Les Vins Fins 1947 - Châteauneuf du Pape Sélection de la réserve des Chartes 1947 - Vray Canon Boyer Vacher 1947 - Côtes de Beaune Villages Champy Père et Fils 1947 - Vosne-Romanée Lausson négociant 1947 - Pommard F.de Marguery 1947 - Vosne Romanée Calvet 1947 - Aloxe-Corton Rémi de Foulanges 1947 - Château Fonplégade Saint-Émilion 1947 - Châteauneuf-du-Pape Emile Costes “Vins en Gros” à Nanterre 1947 - Gevrey-Chambertin R.Vinzent négociant 1947 - Moulin à Vent Genève Frères à Macon 1947 - Château La Perrière, Lussac Saint-Emilion 1947 - Vosne Romanée Van der Meullen 1947 - Côtes de Nuits vigneron inconnu 1947 - Cornas Chante Perdrix Audibert et Delas 1947 - Juliénas Antonin Rodet 1947 - Châteauneuf-du-Pape Emile Costes négociant 1947 - Moulin à Vent René Guyenet 1947 - Château Fougueyrat Saint Emilion 1947 - Chambolle-Musigny A. Rossigneux & Fils 1947 - Gevrey Chambertin Maison P. Jorrot 1947 - Châteauneuf du Pape David & Foillard 1947 - Pommard Pierre Hugot négociant 1947 - Saint-Amour supposé 1947 - Château Belgrave Haut-Médoc 1948.

When I explored wines which were not known to me, it was generally in greater years.

1 Like
39

I am a real believer in older wines. I also experience (at a much lower volume than you) that bottles that are intact that are 50-100 years old are not only ethereal but clearly able to improve and both have the complexity of age and the freshness of youth.

I think it’s worth qualifying your list of great years, however, and maybe you typically do that. As a set, these years are only generally considered great years in red Bordeaux, maybe even only Left Bank Bordeaux as a set — here I’m thinking of ‘64 Right Bank for example, so there could be some nuances even in Bordeaux. (I’m also not sure I’d put 2000 there, at least not yet. And I might put a couple others and also expect a couple others to ascend in time.)

If I listed the great years in Rioja or red Burgundy (or Champagne or Vouvray), for example, it’s a different set.

In any case, Cheers(!) to another defense of old wine and aging wine.

40

You know, it’s funny I was just lamenting the fact that I never get an opportunity to practice my French (I had native fluency when I was 18 … at 33 I can get by). I hereby accept your generous invitation to come to France and have you demonstrate that these old wines are better than young wines!