Conflicted about brett

[DougS]

@Robert Alfert

@Doug Schulman

@Robert Alfert

I’d rather deal with low levels of brett than a winemaker lavishly using oak, toasting oak, picking overly-ripe, overly fining or filtering, and a myriad of other things that consultants and winemakers can do to wines to “enhance” or “cleanse” their wines.

I’m a little confused as to what any of this other than filtering has to do with brett. Most of the other things you’ve mentioned will make its impact on a wine more likely, if anything. It’s quite easy and common to make clean wines without using lots of new oak or overly ripe grapes.

I may not have been clear, as I was not trying to draw a connection between brett and things like toasted oak. My point was, while not quite calling it a “fault,” I perceive the over-use of oak, toast, picking super ripe grapes, etc., to be more of a flaw in winemaking than the presence of low levels of brett.

Ah, I see. That does make sense. I guess I’m one who is generally intolerant to brett (with a few exceptions like Musar), but I’m just as intolerant to wines I find overoaked or wildly overripe. I can understand finding one trait worse than another, though.

[David_Glasser]

My Brett tolerance is similar to Alfert’s, we seem to like a lot of the same funky wines. Leather, sweaty, meaty, a bit of bandaid or barnyard are just fine with me. But overt baby diaper or unwashed wet dog is DNPIM.

Unlike TCA, provenance and storage are a big deal with Brett because it will continue to grow in the bottle. Especially at warmer temps.

[Robert.A.Jr]

Just so we are clear, I save the bandaids for David, and diapers for Corey. Not my thing.

[Todd_Hamina]

@CoryA

@Todd Hamina

Research Guaiacol.

Todd, you must be under the false impression that I’m a chemistry major.

Spanish lit for me mon frère.

[Scott_G_r_u_n_e_r]

I see Brett sort of the same as all other elements - (oak, acid, fruit, tannin) . A little brett- adds complexity and interest to certain types of wines. A lot of brett brings the wine out of balance and often has off putting metallic notes. I am similar with other “flaws”- green-ness, stemmy-ness, etc. YMMV.

[Matthew_King]

Here’s a question:

Say you have a fairly low threshold for tolerating brett. Would you be within your rights to return a bottle to a retailer or decline a bottle from your sommelier if had low levels of brett in it? Some might say it’s a fault, others might say it’s a characteristic of the wine.

I’d be pissed if I were the sommelier and a customer opened up a bottle of Pegau and then complained about a bit of horse. Is it up to the somm to explicitly state that certain bottles may have brett and it may or may not be to the customer’s liking?

If a retailer would take back a bottle infected with TCA (a clear fault), should the store also take back a bottle with low levels of brett (a fault to me, but a positive to others)?

[Ron_Slye]

I think it would depend on the wine, and the circumstances. If it is a wine that is known to have brett – Pegau, Musar, etc., then generally it should not be sent back. Of course, from the point of view of the restaurant, it is usually better practice to act as though the customer were correct and accept the bottle back. One way to limit that is to make sure that either the description in the menu (if there is one), or the sommelier or waiter when taking the order, describes the wine correctly as having those characteristics.

A similar question would be – if a chardonnay is over oaked, should it be sent back. For me, if I say that I don’t want an oaky chardonnay and the sommelier recommends one that turns out to have a lot of oak, I have no problem returning it. If instead I pick the wine blind (or with faulty information not provided by the restaurant), then I chalk it up to experience and don’t return it.

Edit: I also think there is a world of difference between these and TCA. No one thinks TCA is appealing, and I would have no problem demanding a refund or replacement.

[Blake_Brown]

@Frank Drew

I like older Beaucastel so I guess I can tolerate some brett (not Pegau so much, though), but when it gets downright fecal smelling, I’m out. And a bretty wine from Provence smells like a bretty Bordeaux and like a bretty wherever – it does a good job of obscuring terroir, IMO. I think some people genuinely like brett in its various manifestations (go figure), but some people equate a bretty wine with “authenticity”, the opposite in their minds of the much-maligned, and somewhat apocryphal, UC Davis squeaky-clean style of winemaking.

I`m with Frank on this. Older Beaucastel was the epitome of Brett laced wine. I used to like it in mild forms, but have now lost that appeal and avoid it as much as possible. Also I agree with the remaining comments, all well taken.

[Blake_Brown]

It should also be noted that there are different forms of Brettanomyces, one of which is not so offensive:

4-ethylphenol: Band-aids, barnyard, horse stable, antiseptic

4-ethylguaiacol: Bacon, spice, cloves, smoky

isovaleric acid: Sweaty saddle, cheese, rancidity

[Ron_Slye]

@Blake Brown

It should also be noted that there are different forms of Brettanomyces, one of which is not so offensive:

4-ethylphenol: Band-aids, barnyard, horse stable, antiseptic

4-ethylguaiacol: Bacon, spice, cloves, smoky

isovaleric acid: Sweaty saddle, cheese, rancidity

Obviously you are referring to the isovaleric acid as the least offensive…

[Oliver_McCrum]

@Doug Schulman

I guess I’m one who is generally intolerant to brett (with a few exceptions like Musar), but I’m just as intolerant to wines I find overoaked or wildly overripe. I can understand finding one trait worse than another, though.

I agree. I hate both extremes; you could argue that they both obscure individuality in wine.

[Scott_E1]

@Adam Lee

A couple of differences between brett and, say, toasted oak. When you remove the wine from oak and bottle it, it has all of the oak that it is going to have. Brett grows in the bottle (unless the wine is filtered or velcorin’ed). Second, if you choose to change your winemaking after a year and choose not to add oak at all the next year then you can easily to that. You just don’t buy oak. But if you have brett in your facility and don’t want it any longer, it is far more difficult to make that change.

Adam Lee
Clarice Wine Company and Siduri Wines

I was wondering about that. If Brett continues to grow in the bottle, does that mean the Bretty taste gets stronger too?

[Robert.A.Jr]

Yes, brett can bloom badly in a bottle, especially one subjected to poor storage.

[RichardFlack]

@Oliver McCrum

@Doug Schulman

I guess I’m one who is generally intolerant to brett (with a few exceptions like Musar), but I’m just as intolerant to wines I find overoaked or wildly overripe. I can understand finding one trait worse than another, though.

I agree. I hate both extremes; you could argue that they both obscure individuality in wine.

Balance Rules! Including a little savouryness (barnyard leather whatever) in some cases.

[Oliver_McCrum]

@RichardFlack

@Oliver McCrum

@Doug Schulman

I guess I’m one who is generally intolerant to brett (with a few exceptions like Musar), but I’m just as intolerant to wines I find overoaked or wildly overripe. I can understand finding one trait worse than another, though.

I agree. I hate both extremes; you could argue that they both obscure individuality in wine.

Balance Rules! Including a little savouryness (barnyard leather whatever) in some cases.

As a drinker, I think this is exactly right; as an importer, Brett makes me nervous. What if it gets worse in the bottle? What about next year? It is an organism, after all, you can’t add a pinch of it.

Brett has in effect become part of the normal expression of some wine types, but it isn’t that way in Italy yet, which is OK with me.

[larry_schaffer]

One of the biggest challenges with brett is that it expresses itself differently in each bottle - so ‘cimparing’ bottles is pretty useless.

Storage and provenance is paramount, but as a winemaker, if I bottled a wine with ‘a touch’ of brett and it bloomed further, it’d be difficult for me to say that this is the wine i ‘intended’ to make . . .

[Viet_Ly]

@larry schaffer

One of the biggest challenges with brett is that it expresses itself differently in each bottle - so ‘cimparing’ bottles is pretty useless.

Storage and provenance is paramount, but as a winemaker, if I bottled a wine with ‘a touch’ of brett and it bloomed further, it’d be difficult for me to say that this is the wine i ‘intended’ to make . . .

Thanks for the response. It makes sense that storage/provenance has big impact since it can bloom as others have noted, but I wasn’t sure about bottle variation with a recently released wine. Also appreciate your input regarding your thoughts as a wine maker. I’m new to beer, but it seems like there’s intention to have brett especially in some of the sour beers I’ve tried. Did a quick google search and found this What Is Brettanomyces And What Is It Doing In My Beer? | VinePair Maybe they’re not as worried about blooming because beers are refrigerated a cooler temps and often drunk at release, but I know many people who are getting into aging their beers. Any beer drinkers out there that can chime in on this?

[DougS]

@Scott E.

@Adam Lee

A couple of differences between brett and, say, toasted oak. When you remove the wine from oak and bottle it, it has all of the oak that it is going to have. Brett grows in the bottle (unless the wine is filtered or velcorin’ed). Second, if you choose to change your winemaking after a year and choose not to add oak at all the next year then you can easily to that. You just don’t buy oak. But if you have brett in your facility and don’t want it any longer, it is far more difficult to make that change.

Adam Lee
Clarice Wine Company and Siduri Wines

I was wondering about that. If Brett continues to grow in the bottle, does that mean the Bretty taste gets stronger too?

To expand on Robert’s correct answer (yes), this is why many people consider any noticeable amount of brett in an unfiltered wine an outright fault. There’s no way of knowing how strong the resulting byproducts will smell/taste in the bottle a given customer opens. It will vary and can increase enormously from the time of bottling.

That said, almost all of the great old French reds (and probably old red wines from most other places) have brett. Some of those have obviously provided some great drinking experiences, even to those of us who can be fairly intolerant of brett. The idea of “zero tolerance”, if true, means that person wouldn’t enjoy the vast majority of the great Bordeaux or Burgundies from the 1960s and before. I understand that it isn’t always apparent just because it’s there, but I usually find at least a hint in old French reds. I think in the modern era, the best thing a winemaker can do is try to avoid having any viable brett in their finished wine. I really don’t believe that its presence adds anything positive to those great old bottles, at least not for me. Still, it’s there in almost every one.

[Frank_Drew]

@Todd Hamina

@CoryA

@Todd Hamina

Research Guaiacol.

Todd, you must be under the false impression that I’m a chemistry major.

Spanish lit for me, mi hermano.

FIFY.