Clos Vougeot topography/quality question

WINE TALK
21

Eric…needless to say. Ray is right.

Generalization in Burgundy interesting but it is also complex.

One of the reason why I am fond of saying : producers, producers and producers.

I gave you an example. Prieur owns 5 separated parcels both in Chambertin and in Chambertin-CdBeze - totalling 0.14 ha. Prieur crafts and releases one Chambertin year in and year out. What I am trying to say is : Prieur needs to do blending.

But my main point is : does blending really fatal to the voice of a vineyard ?

22

But Prieur blending different parcels of Chambertin that all have the same soil type is different than blending different parcels of Vougeot that have different soil types.

23

Paul Draper is also of that view. Hence only a handful of Ridge’s bottlings are blends from different sites, and those are all at the lowest price points.

24

I’m not sure that’s true. I was looking at a map of holdings in CV a few months back and was surprised to see how many producers had multiple small plots in different areas – top, bottom, east and west.

25

John, you are most correct.
Not only do many or the majority of producers have multiple plots, you may also have one single plot with several distinct types of soils, elevations, exposures, age of vines, etc etc etc. all of these things do play a role but indeed having one section does not mean you have one expression of terroir that is possible from the land beneath you.

The comment somewhere above that mentioned all of grand cru land being consistent is accurate.

Thoughts:

Soil and elevation changes are present in many of the grands crus

Named places of surrounding vineyards were consumed by many known grands crus. La Tache, Clos de la Roche, Clos St-Denis, Richebourg and many others have consumed or have been consolidated in name over time

26

Hey Eric
The soil isn’t necessarily more uniform in a Grand Cru. In fact, a Grand Cru vineyard is more likely to have ome adjoined vineyards that may not be identical than it is to find similar situations with Village and Premier Cru tier vineyards.

Also, the Clos isn’t neatly cut along differing soil types. I can shoot some photos tomorrow, or video to give you an idea of just how uniquely un-uniform this “vineyard” (as it is more so a collection of vineyards) is.

27

Ray Walker wrote:
These are the words that echoed to me when reading André Jullien and Cyrus Redding, both submitting this idea that wines of the top quality tier (presumably those with distinctive voices) when mixed together cannot hope to rival wines of the third quality.

I have seen evidence of this personally and believe it to be one of the most singular ideas in Burgundy wines. ******


OK…Eric :

I will give a better example and stick to the main point of what Ray said re CdV. Please do not get me wrong as I found the subject very interesting.

CdVougeot is indeed too large ( 50.96 ha ) to have uniform type of soil. With approx 80 land-owners and with more than perhaps 100 prodocers, what is ( or who speaks ) the the voice of CdVougeot [scratch.gif] ?

One of the most expensive CdV at release is : Domaine Leroy and she owns 3 parcels ( totalling 1.91 ha ) with one on the top, one in the middle and one at the bottom.

Is her CdV the voice for CdVougeot ? I have no idea !!

28

Thanks all. What about quality? Are the best CdV equal to the best of the “second tier” of GCs?

29

Hey Chris
with Burgundy, it is interesting to look towards differences and singularity of expression instead of best/worst/competing, etc. In this realm, CdV at present has not a great standing of showing a strength of singularity which in my opinion lowers my enthusiasm for it. I do believe that the potential is there. But, unrealized potential is just that, isn’t it?

30

Obviously blending occurs within village and 1er cru wines and is disallowed between Grand Cru vineyards (and still call it Grand Cru)…but the different soils within Vougeot is, I think, what Ray is talking about.

**is disallowed between Grand Cru vineyards (and still call it Grand Cru)…

Eric…I just noticed your comments : that blending is disallowed between Grand Cru vinyards ( and still call it Grand Cru ).

Are you aware that under AC systems, there are exceptions to what you had just said ? [cheers.gif]

31

it is interesting to look towards differences and singularity of expression instead of best/worse/competing, etc.

Very well said. Your best may not be my best; and my worse may not be your worse.

Completing in not one of main goals in drinking burgundy wines; but it is nice to have friendly conversations ( or discussion ) about it so that we may have more funs in enjoyment. [highfive.gif]

32

I used to mess around with CV. The large vineyard size reflects diverse geology, geography and terroir. The resulting quality is quite mixed for a GC and the prices reflect that.

There is a most impressive Chateau on the property, where they are prone to singing “The Yellow Rose of Texas.”

33

Time for some thread drift, but this is only sort of true. Monte Bello, for example, is a “single vineyard” wine, but I’m pretty sure the plots that have gone into Monte Bello have varied significantly over time. I think Ridge hasn’t always owned/controlled the entire historic Monte Bello vineyard (which had been divided among four separate ranches), and besides that they’ve in the past bottled Jimsomare separately while now it’s blended into MB, and some parcels have been taken in and out of rotation for replanting, etc. Plus Monte Bello is big and spans 1400 ft in altitude with different soils and exposures (some of it is lower down on the west facing side, some of it is higher up on the top of the ridge).

So is Monte Bello really a single-site wine? Depends on what your concept of “site” is.

34

An interesting point.

Incidently, for anyone who hasn’t seen it, Ridge has some very cool simulated 3D animations of their vineyard sites that give you a good sense of the topography: http://www.ridgewine.com/Images/Flash/Ridge%20Flyover

(Can you tell the winery is adjacent to Silicon Valley?)

35

I checked Jasper Morris’s map of Clos Vougeot ownerships. The following producers have multiple non-contiguous plots, in many cases quite far removed from each other.

Two non-contiguous plots - Faiveley, Drouhin, Leroy, Jadot, Haegelen-Jayer, Grivot, Laurent Roumier, Dom. de la Vougerie, Raphet.

Three non-contiguous plots - Lamarche, Meo

Some producers like Meo and Ch. de la Tour have more than three plots but some are adjacent to each other, so I have counted them as single sites.

36

Something to note regarding the lower Clos, the modern RN74 has created a sort of levee at the base of the Clos. In some spots it even rises above the old stone fence. This road now causes flooding and drainage problems in the lower sections of the Clos.

37

Jadot’s plots are non-contiguous? I was under the impression that Jadot’s two plots were acquired from Clair-Daü and Champy, and that they were adjacent…the Champy plot being right above the Clair-Daü plot. I’ve seen references to that elsewhere, so thought that was the case. Jasper Morris show’s differently?

Also, there are a series of contiguous Raphet plots in the northeast corner, next to RN74…I assumed those were all used by the Raphet…is that not true. Or do they have plots elsewhere?

And I see Grivot has a plot at the bottom, below the Morin plots. I’m not seeing any other Grivot plots elsewhere. Course the map I’m using might be out of date.

38

Interesting…any examples of exceptions that you can share? In Chablis, there’s La Moutonne (combination of Preuses and Vaudésirs)…but I thought it wasn’t officially recognized as Grand Cru.

39

Hey Ray,

You’re saying that other Grand Cru’s (other than Vougeot) have a mix of soil types as well? I’m surprised at that (not questioning what you’re saying, since you’d know better than I, just surprised). I understand different areas within a GC having different mixes of the elements of a soil type…to use an example local/familiar to me: there are lots of vineyards planted on goldridge loam, but not all goldridge loam soils are 100% identical, even tho they’re made up from the same set of elements. But to have fundamentally different soils within a GC vineyard (excepting Vougeot) surprises me. I had always understood that GC’s as being the most pure in terms of their terroir expression. And while I understand that both aspect and soil are critical to terroir, I thought that soil is the primary driver of terroir.

Would love to see any pics/videos of Vougeot (or other) soils you have time to take Ray. Thanks.

40

In Chablis, there’s La Moutonne (combination of Preuses and Vaudésirs)…but I thought it wasn’t officially recognized as Grand Cru.

La Moutonne ( within Preuses and Vaudésirs - the 2 lieux-dites out of the 7 inside the one and only : Appellation Chablis Grand Cru controllee )…has official Grand Cru status.



Interesting…any examples of exceptions that you can share?

Hmm…I thought you know the exceptions. The exceptions are of the following 4 official AOCs in Gervey.

AOC Charmes-Chambertin and AOC Mazoyeres-Chambertin are inter-exchangeble.

Juice from AOC Chambertin-Clos de Beze is allowed to be blended with juice from AOC Chambertin and labelled as AOC Chambertin ; but not the other way around.