Champagne Houses where 2nd Best is Close to the Top - or not! And Why?

Yes and it is better than the 2009. On par with or better than the 2006.

So, like 6 bottles won’t cover it? champagne.gif

So where does the vintage rose fit into the Roederer hierarchy? I confess to having loved the couple bottles of the 2012 I have had recently.

Re krug, I don’t think the vintage is worth the premium over mv at all. The special cuvees are stupidly expensive but based on my single experience with clos d’ambonnay, if money were no object, I’d bathe in it!

Domaine Carneros is quite good… I’m not sure if this falls under the same discussion since Taittinger is 50% ownership and it’s not technically a champagne.

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Did a blind tasting about 6 months ago of Veuve’s Grande Dame, Grande Dame Rose, Vintage Brut, and Vintage Rose, all from the 2008 vintage. While most tasters preferred the Grande Dames over the Vintage bottlings, the wines were surprising close and several tasters wondered if the 2-3x premium for the Grande Dames was worth it.

No thoughts on why the significant underperformers can’t, don’t or won’t apply standards across the spectrum? Is it just not financially worth it because people will buy on the Prestige regardless? Some houses seem to believe it’s worth the effort, so I have to assume that’s not only about purity of standards.

I agree. The vintage 2012 Brut is very good also.

Peters and Vilmart were the ones that sprang to my mind, but they have already been covered.

The why would seem likely to vary from person to person, and what they value out of the wine. I am not much of a Cristal fan, so I can’t make an assessment against the vintage Roederer, but with both Peters and Vilmart I find their NV wines to provide so much of the character that flows across their range that I don’t often have the “need” to step up to Chetillons or Coeur de Cuvee. I still do make the step up once in a while, just not often.

The other element for me is the fact that I rarely drink Champagne on its own, so it’s not going to get the chance to have the stage to itself. The extra special nuances in top Champagne can be overwhelmed by even favorable food pairings in my experience, so opening a bottle of vintage Krug isn’t going to make a lot of sense. I’ll do it, but not so often. Actually, Krug is one of the wines that can better hold its own. But otherwise there is a reason that popcorn and gougeres are my favorite foods with Champagne. It gives the wine the best chance to shine.


It could be tied to the specific laws on how champagne is produced. I don’t know all the inner workings of every regulation, but pressing limits may be one of the reasons.

“Juice extraction is strictly limited to 25.5 hectolitres per 4,000kg marc, separating the first pressing juice (the cuvée, representing 20.5hl) from the second (the taille, representing 5hl).” -

Other than brand identity I’m sure some houses want their luxury status wines to be clearly better than the entry level house style. You are getting at a fundamental question of do you produce as many high end bottles as possible or try and strike a balance and use some of the premium grapes in the house/cuvee. I think this conversation extends beyond champagne, but I do think it has to do with what market these champagnes want to be in.

Honestly the difference between the Anderson Valley and their Vintage Brut is not far off.

Have not had one in a while and enjoyed them in the past. Good to see you posting again. champagne.gif

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I wonder how much of it has to do with the Tete de Cuvées being “grower” wines to large extents (like Comtes), which isn’t true for the lower ranges.

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If you don’t like l’Echappee Belle you probably shouldn’t take my advice on Champagne.

If you are comparing Roederer Estate to Roederer then they are miles apart in style and while the RE is well done for its price it can’t hold a candle to vintage Roederer.

If the comparison is with the RE “prestige” California wine then the gap is still pretty wide IMO, but they can be easily compared.

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Have you had the newest NV of the Anderson Valley? If not can’t really comment as it is outstanding and better than 75% of the NV Champagnes I have sampled in the last two years.

Had 0 bottles of VC in my cellar and took a tip to buy some 08 GD and 08 vintage brut at a great price on release. Was very surprised by the quality and as you say, the 08 vintage brut is darn close to the 08 GD quality.


Ha - I’m the opposite. It’s because Jay loves Calsac that I haven’t tried it. We overlap on many wines, but often not champagne! (No offense intended, Jay!)

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