One of these days I want to get up to see you, Chris. Thank you for sharing this post, too.
That’s a really thoughtful article. Thanks for sharing it.
I say that not because I’m trying to stake out one side or the other on the topic, but just that it’s good to read things like that and learn different well-reasoned perspectives.
Organics are not bullet proof, but it sure is a step in the right direction. (Remember that the rules differs from country to country). For EU:
"In the EU, according to the pesticide approvals database, there are currently 490 substances approved for use as pesticides – of which only 28 are approved for use in organic agriculture.
In organic farming, it is only when all other methods of dealing with pests have been exhausted and the farmer is faced with a potential loss of crops, that one of the approved pesticides can be used. It’s a controlled process and is never the first line of action."
That sure as hell is better than being allowed to “freely” spray whatever and whenever.
When it comes to wine, i try to read up on every single domaine i buy from. Not being certified does not mean that they don’t work without pesticides or care for biodiversity.
Worthy of a 2 minute review of the EPA assessment of glyphosate.
EPA continues to find that there are no risks of concern to human health when glyphosate is used in accordance with its current label. EPA also found that glyphosate is unlikely to be a human carcinogen.
Putting the human health issue aside, a viticultural reason for going organic or biodynamic is that it appears to produce healthier vines and better fruit. According to JBL, organic is better in cold years and biodynamic in warm years.
It’s good to understand this. Frank and others (myself included) are right to look for producers who use better methods to control weeds and cover crop than just nuking them with herbicide. But glyphosohate has not been show to be actually hazardous to humans in typical use. I don’t use it around my yard, but I do use it to kill off weeds growing in my concrete driveway ![[cheers.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/0/0ff9bfcdb0964982cd3240b6159868fbdf215b1a.gif "cheers"){kind=small}
I still try to avoid it as much as I can, and wouldn’t personally use it at home. It’s health effects are still controversial. While the EPA states there are no risks when used properly, the International Agency for Research on Cancer categorizes glyphosate as a probable carcinogen for humans. Unfortunately, it’s found everywhere, including some organically grown foods (likely due to drift).
Even if we accept that it is not harmful to human health based on studies directly related to “human health,” I still wonder about a product designed to kill another organism. If it kills plants, what about all the other species that live in and around the plants or rely on those plants for food and habitat? And then on from there. In other words, the web of life. Even if we don’t see the damage and the impact, that doesn’t mean it is not there. And I think this damage to the web is becoming more and more apparent with each passing year. Part of the problem with some of our current agricultural treatments is that they are “dumb bomb” that can kill far beyond their intended targets. Unfortunately, lots of our produces do that. Clorox kills 99% of germs! And I want that on the largest organ of my body? I am not a hippy, an anti-vaxer, a conspiracy theorist or hopefully any other brand of nut job. I’m just trying to do my best to protect my little corner of the world and leave it as holistically healthy as possible because this strikes me as common sense. And I respect and support all wine makers and other producers who do the same.
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Yes, exactly. Doesn’t hurt people doesn’t mean it’s good for the planet.
Secondary repercussions might be a negative affect on pollenators, for example. Bees are really important. Just because it’s good for the goose doesn’t mean it’s good for the gander.
For clarity when using the term pesticides is that including fungicides? I have a small home vineyard in Maryland. It’s easy to go without herbicide as I have never spayed once in the 15 years I have been growing. Pesticides are a bit tougher only due to Japanese Beetles. In most years I can get by with hand picking but in really bad years spraying is required. I believe I last sprayed in 2019. But fungicides are a requirement. Without regular fungicide sprays, I’d lose the entire crop before harvest and possibly the plants themselves. I had a bad downy mildew infestation my first year that resulted in significant defoliation and I was lucky that the plants survived.
I know that most growing areas require less fungicides usage than the mid-Atlantic but was unaware of producers able to forego them entirely.
Chris, your comment above is wise as to systemic and broader impact concerns. Everything (to me in at least how I think about relationships) is related, part of a system. When you whack out a portion of that inter-relationship then you may end up with problems.
Guys now (I think of Benoit Dehu) are planting orchard trees around the property to help support the ‘inter-relatedness’ that emerges from a healthy ecosystem. Others too, although I can’t think of who I want to say (might be Miniere or Mousse, too). Working to establish something beyond a mono-culture, instead something more inter-related.
To a degree, perhaps more than I can accurately detail here, this is kind of what I see Jamie Kutch doing in his new vineyard up in the SC. Raptor boxes, bee hive, composting, soil amendments etc. He’s starting off in an inter-related way, which I respect and value.
Brig, I’m not convinced that the risk is as it’s described. There are folks in this business that have had cancer issues with their workers, their kids too, and they’re convinced that it’s based on herbicide exposure. Proving that of course is hard, but for some of these producers to abandon the ways of the previous generations and go at this without herbicide says a lot about their convictions and beliefs about the origin. To work in the way of Vouette et Sorbee, or Benoit Dehu, or others, without this spray, that ain’t easier, it is harder.
As a someone trained in science, this is an opinion piece, not a peer reviewed scientific article. It contains little if any science. I undertand and agree with the issue raised about the marketing of organics in supermarkets but that is not the context we are discussing in this thread. Here we are talking about mostly smaller family run businesses.
Here in NZ, the biggest issues when I have talked to vineyard owners who practice organics are; soil health, soil microbiome, and insect populations etc. It is not about the impact of pesticides on human health. I have been to the vineyards and tasted the fruit and seen the soil. This is all annectodal of course but I can say the differences were impressive.
I have been a long time organic sceptic but am now a supporter. Context matters enormously.
Brodie
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+1 on Brodie’s take on the essay referenced above.
I tend to buy organic food when practical because I want to minimize pesticide residues in what I eat, and I want to buy food that was produced without introducing a lot of pesticides, etc., to the environment.
I use a long-handled propane torch to kill weeds. It’s a lot more fun than spraying glyphosate or whatever…
Roasted coffee is in that same realm. Anything at a high enough dose can do things…
This whole “I saw a vineyard, they used roundup, and the soil looked dead” thing is a weird point to start understanding from. There are a million things that could contribute to that, including a lot of pesticides that actually do kill a lot of living things other than plants. Glyphosate kills plants, not the microbes or insects.
Pesticides kill pests
Herbicides kill plants
Organic agriculture is not pesticide free agriculture.
Organic pesticides are often exempt from residue tolerances (aka they can have a ton of them on the commodity)
Conventional Pesticides have strict residue limits that incorporate orders of magnitude of safety factors.
Organic pesticides are typically WAY BETTER for no target pests, and the organic farmer typically is more invested in things like soil health and environmental health due to either magnanimity or self interest in long term success. These are reasons to buy organics.
You know, I almost added “sensu lato” after “pesticides” to indicate that I meant “and other biocides.” But I thought that might be a bit pedantic. Since you bring it up, recall that “pesticides” do not only kill pests… they kill a lot of non-pest organisms too… including beneficial bees for example. Insecticides kill pest insects (along with others). And herbicides kill pest plants (along with others)…
There is a kaleidoscope of pesticides (s.l.) permitted in conventional ag that are not in organic. I prefer to avoid them.
One aspect that has to be addressed is the crop loss to Champagne farmers for going organic/biodynamic: I’ve read that organic/bio farming results in 70% maximum of what is achieved conventionally. Are producers paying more for organic/bio grapes? 30% more? It seems unfair to me to burden the farmers with all the costs of going organic/bio.
I’d love to hear more from those knowledgeable.
Are you talking about the big houses? From the little I know, the organic/biodynamic movement is being driven more by Grower Champagne producers who are choosing to take on that expense for the perceived benefit.
Further herbicide use regulation is in the realm of “the writing is on the wall”. I know a large grower in the UK that is trying to transition away from herbicides to a mechanical weeding approach as he knows the restrictions in Europe will eliminate the use of herbicides commercially where he is. From my experience mechanical weeding & mowing has technologies that for the most part are less than perfect but can work in the right conditions. The good news is that solutions come around every year. Since we started our vineyard in 2014 we have avoided herbicides and have gravitated to mechanical forms of weeding. I’m expecting another technical solution(our 3rd try) from Italy to hit my doorstep any day. My expectation is that if it works as well as I think it will then I will look at tying together 2 vineyard operations in the same pass to decrease diesel usage and vineyard alley compaction. In my mind one of the major reasons to avoid herbicides is to stabilize the soil ecosphere and through time add cultural practices that enhance that soil biome in favor of vine health. Getting back to the herbicide practice in Champagne I wonder if they are doing it to increase soil temperature that radiates to potentially stave off a frost event. The main varieties in Champagne tend to bud early and become a frost target in the event of a killing frost following a warm period that exposes the buds/new shoots.
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Chris, I’m asking about both, if there is a distinction to be made. Farmers who grow for negociants, ‘houses’ or anyone other than themselves.
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