Interesting thread. I have been drinking Chablis for only the past several years and at the Village level mostly. I enjoy the style of wine, but it may be possible that my Chablis bottles bear little resemblance to what Chablis “should be”. The thread is also a good example of why I enjoy WB. Knowledgeable people, many with a way with words, comments that are clever and amusing as a bonus.
Cheers.
3 Likes
I think that’s the answer to what you said, Greg (below). Though the appellation may not be huge, there is a lot of lesser Chablis in the market that likely has to compete with other chardonnays, and no doubt appeals more to the mass market if its acid is lower than archetypical Chablis and has some oak showing.
I think this is wrong on a number of levels. Chablis is a very small appellation, so changing its appeal to very broad tastes is a quixotic goal - there are limited gains to be made from changing the appeal to a more “generic” palate. In addition, there’s no shortage of central coast Chardonnay available in supermarkets in the US, but it makes no sense for Chablis to compete in that market; the wines have to be imported, go through the three tier system and customers then have to be convinced to pay extra for the wines that are now not really different from their local Chardonnays. In France there are already plenty of cheaper Chardonnay/white alternatives too.
You completely miss my point Greg, Chablis is not a staple in grocery across the US where most wine is purchased outside 3L box of Franzia or a Rossi jug. Big box like Costco usually has 1…KS 1er Chablis. Has nothing to do with 3-tier, the wines are already here in US.
I cannot think of a single Chablis that is widely distributed…probably the most available wine in grocery is Jadot Macon-Villages. Part of that is volume available, part of it is zero regional marketing in US, last is the region does not explain to the layperson that Chablis = Chardonnay and Chablis is low or no oak compared to Central Coast options.
Chablis as a style is very attractive to avg. younger American Chardonnay consumer, once they know what it is, that price point will mostly be AOC Chablis, nonetheless as regions warm and styles change the balance of more fruit and less oak is what a lot of 25-40 drinkers are looking for and why they are moving to Sauv Blanc or Pinot Gris since they don’t know that Chablis is an option for Chardonnay.
1 Like
I understood your point fine, but again, it doesn’t make sense for Chablis to compete for market share with Sauv Blanc and Pinot Gris . There are regions that will do those types of wine better and cheaper.
1 Like
La Chablisienne makes about 25% of all Chablis, and it uses stainless steel, so I wouldn’t expect oak. Will warmer vintages help them, Drouhin, Jadot and Long-Depaquit sell their basic Chablis? Maybe? But I didn’t get the sense it’s an issue today. If Chablis is struggling now at the lower levels, happy to be proven wrong!
Not sure why, but big grocers in my area have been switching out Jadot’s Pouilly Fuisse and subbing in the straight Chablis on the shelves/planograms, usually for a couple bucks less.
I think the name ‘Chablis’ has been slightly tainted by the Gallo jug wines carrying that name for decades, at least in the minds of casual consumers.
4 Likes
I cannot think of a single Chablis that is widely distributed
Trader Joe’s has the Brocard Sainte Celine in a lot of its stores at ~$17 and recently added another (Quinson “L’Arme d’Or”) at the stores near me. The Sainte Celine is fine, if pretty unexciting, with the biggest trait being that it’s “unoaked” as the shelf talkers say. The focus on making “unoaked” a point of distinction for Chablis reminds me of the sweet/dry distinction for Riesling–an important part of consumer education that sometimes gets overemphasized to the point of missing other key traits.
This thread has been fascinating. I am curious as well about the causes/effects of the relatively lower Chablis pricing compared to other Burgundies and especially domestic options. If the choice is a ~$35 1er Cru from Chablis or a $45 domestic, I’m inclined to go with the Chablis (though I find that 1er Crus usually benefit from a bit more aging). Petit Chablis at $20 for an immediate drinker is good too. Hopefully prices stay reasonable in the future since it’s a great, distinctive region that helped me personally see another side of Chardonnay.
EDIT: found this publicly accessible article that tries to model the effects of climate change on Chablis based on how rainfall and weather affected past vintages.
1 Like
Are they choosing to make riper Chablis or is the change in climate forcing this change upon them? What would you suggest they do on the 9 our of 10 years that are not like 2021, not make wine?
And, while the Chablis I am drinking may be riper than it was in the past, I have not tasted any flabby, low acid wines that remind me of central coast wines. Can you provide SPECIFIC examples of Chablis you are buying that taste like central coast wines? Maybe you need to be more selective in the producers you drink?
1 Like
Nobody said flabby or very ripe wines are in their interest. I am just guessing the types of Chablis that are common among good producers today are more successful commercially than the styles made decades ago, and few producers would choose to go back to 1980s or 1990s levels of ripeness.
Even though many of us in this thread, myself included, would like that.
Does anyone disagree with that?
1 Like
I wasn’t drinking wine then, but I think the quality of Chablis being made today likely far surpasses that made in the 1980s and 1990s. From everything I’ve read, the wines were pretty dreadful for the most part. Rare to have a truly terrible vintage now, and I’m not so sure it would be in our best interest to go back to those ripeness (or underripeness) levels.
1 Like
I expect these are the excellent responses to someone else’s post.
1 Like
Chris, what is this guess based on? If it’s based on prices, all Chablis is more expensive, so how would we judge this?
Like I said, it’s a guess, just based on what tends to sell well, what producers in other old world regions try to do when technology / techniques / weather give them the ability to make relatively riper wines than they made traditionally, and how demand and pricing appear to have gone up as White Burg and Chablis have attained their current styles.
I also wonder if producers couldn’t still choose to make leaner chardonnay there if that’s what they actually wanted. I know some question if slightly earlier picking wouldn’t work because the grapes wouldn’t be mature enough.
But, just to give one random example from the new world, 2020 Sanford & Benedict Vineyard chardonnay, you have producers like Testarossa making 14.3% chardonnay, then excellent producers like Tyler making 13.2% and Arnot Roberts making 12.5%. Sandhi also makes a chardonnay there, I can’t find the number but it’s probably in the 12s. All those earlier picked chardonnays are well rated and reviewed by critics and consumers.
There isn’t unlimited ability to pick at lower Brix and still make good wine, of course, but I think with chardonnay there is some decent range.
All just speculation following what clues I have. I don’t claim to have inside knowledge or expertise.
1 Like
Chris, just to be clear, are you arguing that Chablis (and Burgundy) has gotten popular because it has become riper? Thus the emphasis in my post.
I would guess that the Chablis of today is a friendlier style which reaches a wider audience than Chablis used to, but I would call call that more of a hunch or a feeling than an argument, just based on what I’ve observed about wine consumers over my journey.
What is your opinion or guess? Do you think Chablis producers are happy to be able to make the wines they’re making in recent vintages, or do you think they would choose to produce leaner, more acidic wines but are simply unable to do so because of the climate?
I don’t love the comparison to the folks making chardonnay from the central coast, or from California in general. We have things that we can do to moderate the alcohol accumlation that are just not done or in some cases legal in Chablis. We can water, we can manipulate canopy, we can certainly accomodate a wide range of pick times, we don’t have rain in the summer (usually), we often have late rain windows - so can hang it out, we can add water to the must. The difference between 12.5% (on the label) and 14.3% (on the label) is not a wide range of sugar to final alcohol. We’re talking like 2-3 brix with a favorable conversion, which with good weather, can be less than 2 weeks difference in pick dates. I doubt there is that accumulation in Chablis.
That being said, there are also those producers who pick early to retain acidity, then chaptalize! (one of the ones on your list), something that is for sure happening in Chablis as well (from conversations with a handful of producers). This is a hugely varied subject, and there is a lot to dive into here - especially when we talk about what manipulations are and are not legal in a given area.
To your point - yes, there is a good amount of ability to make good wine with Chardonnay over a wide range of ripeness. It’s white (so no skins or stems), it is relatively neutral, and is easily manipulated through winemaking. I think the more genuine discussion is that of Chateauneuf du Pape over the years - as dealing with those grape varieties in a changing climate is far more difficult, and far less you can get away with.
5 Likes
As a casual observer myself as well, I think the last 10 years have taught us that wineries usually have more to gain by being more distinctive, not less. I do not think it is in most Chablis producers’ interest to make soft, easy wines that could be confused for Central Coast Chardonnay. Especially in a macro environment where wine consumption is on the decline.
True Chablis has a USP. Going to a blousier style with global warming puts it in competition with so much wine around the world.
The responses in this thread are way too binary and exaggerated, where the only alternative to the bracing, bony Chablis of the past is fat, glossy, blowsy, low acid chardonnay that could be from (insert whatever new world comp that sounds very insulting).
It looks to me like Chablis producers are making more commercially successful styles in the last decade or so. I’m not sure if what we consider a problem is actually a problem to them.
Can someone with knowledge of the Chablis business say, are they gaining or losing strength as a segment in the last decade?
Why is this discussion any different than what has happened with German Riesling over the past decade?
I guess in that case , many producers decided not to make their wines as dry as that’s what customers were looking for perhaps rather than Mother Nature dealing them those cards?
Anyone care to compare / contrast?
Cheers