Celebrating the new WineBerserkers overhaul this week with our Fearless Leader with a night on the town

[CFu]

@Guillermo_M

Authoritarian propaganda. Even to the point of making that poor woman keep the same pose for at least two pictures.

KEEP SMILING!!!

[Robert_Dentice]

For starters Kajitsu which although vegetarian is Kaiseki and traces its roots back to Kyoto and Miyamasou. One of the most extraordinary and unique meals I have ever had. Sadly they have elected not to renew their lease in NY. Odo is another that comes to mind.

[CFu]

@Robert_Dentice

Odo is another that comes to mind.

Looking at pictures and menu for Odo, it’s definitely not traditional Kaiseki.

Their Gohan dish which is traditionally a rice dish is a noodle dish. A significant chunk is sushi, which is not a prominent part of Kaiseki tradition. Usually the second/third course is a small piece of sushi and then a few slices of sashimi. But that’s typically the extent of raw fish.

It’s much more like N/naka - a blend of traditional/western cuisine. Especially with the strong use of truffles/caviar. Nothing wrong with that, just isn’t in the same type of food.

There are plenty of Kaiseki restaurants in the US at the high end level. I’m just being very specific. There’s nothing like Hayato. Akin to Kohaku, Goryu Kubo and Gaurazaka Ishikawa in Japan.

[Greg_K]

@CFu

Looking at pictures and menu for Odo, it’s definitely not traditional Kaiseki.

Their Gohan dish which is traditionally a rice dish is a noodle dish. A significant chunk is sushi, which is not a prominent part of Kaiseki tradition. Usually the second/third course is a small piece of sushi and then a few slices of sashimi. But that’s typically the extent of raw fish.

It’s much more like N/naka - a blend of traditional/western cuisine. Especially with the strong use of truffles/caviar. Nothing wrong with that, just isn’t in the same type of food.

There are plenty of Kaiseki restaurants in the US at the high end level. I’m just being very specific. There’s nothing like Hayato. Akin to Kohaku, Goryu Kubo and Gaurazaka Ishikawa in Japan.

A significant part of Odo isn’t sushi. Hirohisa also does kaiseki in NYC.

[EvanLodes]

first, that looks like a great meal and awesome wines.

second, I am curious what percent of Berserkers are using the “get off my lawn” OG interface now that we have this up and running…

[CFu]

@Greg_K

A significant part of Odo isn’t sushi. Hirohisa also does kaiseki in NYC.

I’m looking at blog reviews of the kaiseki, it’s 6-7 course pieces. That much sushi is not traditional in kaiseki. Even Peter Well’s review says

Sushi is included in the set menus and comes from sushi chef Seong Cheol Byun, previously of Sushi Nakazawa. He uses fish primarily caught off the East coast, including Long Island black sea bass, Florida mackerel, and bluefin tuna from North Carolina. “This one course, if tripled in length, could be spun off into a separate establishment that would probably be among the top two dozen sushi restaurants in the city,” Wells writes of Odo’s sushi course.

You guys aren’t reading fully what I’m writing.

I said high level traditional Kaiseki. There are plenty of places doing Kaiseki. All these places you guys are linking in New York are doing Kaiseki. I get it, NY IS #1 HOW DARE LA THINK THEY HAVE SOMETHING WE DO NOT.

Go look at pictures of Hayato, Kohaku, Goryu Kubo, Gaurazaka Ishikawa and then go look at photos of Odo, Hirohisa.They aren’t the same style

[Guillermo_M]

What about this place:

Menu | Washoku Rooms in New York, NY

[CFu]

Caviar and truffles. Same as the other spots. Once again. There’s nothing wrong with it. It’s just not considered traditional

[Greg_K]

Look, if you want LA to have this thing, sure, that’s nice.

[Sarah_Kirschbaum]

On the one hand, Charlie is right that traditional kaiseki is a very specific thing with a progression of dishes in a mostly set order, and not a lot of wiggle room. There are regional variations in Japan, of course, and a lot of ingredient variation depending on what local ingredients are available, but in general, it’s a codified thing. Most places outside Japan have taken the term kaiseki and used it to mean something along the lines of “elegant, small plate, multi-course Japanese meals.” It’s often wonderful, but rarely traditional. So I understand Charlie’s point.

On the other hand, I’d be willing to guess there are places other than Hayato in the US. I don’t know what they are, but I’m betting at least one or two exist in NY (I’m 7 years out of the loop there) and possibly in other cities as well.

[Uli_K]

@Sarah_Kirschbaum

On the other hand, I’d be willing to guess there are places other than Hayato in the US. I don’t know what they are, but I’m betting at least one or two exist in NY (I’m 7 years out of the loop there) and possibly in other cities as well.

Has anyone tried Saryo Hachi in Burlingame (SF Bay Area)? I’m tempted and it looks somewhat traditional from the seasonal menu photos guests have posted.

[Robert_M_yers]

I asked my Benihana chef for the kaiseki experience the other day and he didn’t flinch. Flawless execution.

[CFu]

@Sarah_Kirschbaum

On the other hand, I’d be willing to guess there are places other than Hayato in the US. I don’t know what they are, but I’m betting at least one or two exist in NY (I’m 7 years out of the loop there) and possibly in other cities as well.

if there were, wouldn’t we know about those restaurants if they are executing at the same level of Hayato and its ilk? Michelin is obsessed with Japanese food, would have laden it with stars already.

I met some Manhattan travelers at Hayato (that are frequent diners at most of the top New York japanese restaurants - I think greg might know one or two of them!) and they’ve all said there’s nothing like it in NYC.

[Mark_Y]

@CFu

Caviar and truffles. Same as the other spots. Once again. There’s nothing wrong with it. It’s just not considered traditional

I like my traditional kaiseki with lots of truffle.
The more truffle the more traditional baby…

[Greg_K]

@CFu

@Sarah_Kirschbaum

On the other hand, I’d be willing to guess there are places other than Hayato in the US. I don’t know what they are, but I’m betting at least one or two exist in NY (I’m 7 years out of the loop there) and possibly in other cities as well.

if there were, wouldn’t we know about those restaurants if they are executing at the same level of Hayato and its ilk? Michelin is obsessed with Japanese food, would have laden it with stars already.

I met some Manhattan travelers at Hayato (that are frequent diners at most of the top New York japanese restaurants - I think greg might know one or two of them!) and they’ve all said there’s nothing like it in NYC.

As I said, it’s nice LA has this thing! Given what all my friends who go to LA regularly say about high end LA dining, that’s great!

I’m also thoroughly confused by your comment that Michelin loves anything Japanese. It loves anything French, not Japanese. You can see that pretty clearly by the ratings in New York and Paris. They have a formula, and it works best for French restaurants.

As far as Odo, it’s an unusual place where the meal is, to some extent what the chef wants it to be because almost every meal I’ve been to has been a full buyout (probably 6 times over the last year). And I’ve never had remotely as much sushi there as per that review. I can’t remember having any. Given his background, if we asked for Kaiseki, I’m sure he’d do it. Though, no, he obviously doesn’t do traditional kaiseki all the time.

[M.Kaplan]

@Greg_K

I’m also thoroughly confused by your comment that Michelin loves anything Japanese. It loves anything French, not Japanese. You can see that pretty clearly by the ratings in New York and Paris. They have a formula, and it works best for French restaurants.

I agree with this so much regarding Paris that a mere isn’t sufficient. Japanese chefs start with -1 star and work up from there. Seemingly.

[Brandon_R]

Haha, I wondered how long it would take a New Yorker to object to Charlie’s initial assertion. Not long!

[CFu]

@Greg_K

I’m also thoroughly confused by your comment that Michelin loves anything Japanese. It loves anything French, not Japanese. You can see that pretty clearly by the ratings in New York and Paris. They have a formula, and it works best for French restaurants.

Yes they love french but that doesn’t mean they don’t love Japanese as well.

Really break down and look into their ratings for cities. Michelin loves the intimate small roomed / counter top Japanese Cuisine dining experience.

over 20% of the Michelin starred restaurants in NY is Japanese Cuisine. That’s a pretty big chunk. And it’s probably going to grow once the new reviews are released especially with Yoshino opening for the year.

Now look at how many high end japanese restaurants are in Paris. Not japanese chefs cooking french food, but straight japanese cuisine. Paris has a large number of Michelin starred Japanese restaurants compared to the actual number of high end japanese spots they have. They basically gave stars to every high end tasting menu japanese restaurant in Paris.

In California -

Santa Barbara has a single Michelin star and it’s a sushi restaurant.

San Diego has four Michelin star restaurants and two are Japanese restaurants.

Orange County has three Michelin star restaurants and one is Japanese.

LA has 25 Michelin star restaurants - 10 are Japanese restaurants.

[Robert_Dentice]

I agree with Charlie. Michelin places the greatest emphasis on the quality of ingredients; hence, they always seems to give a lot of stars out to Japanese restaurants. In my opinion, they don’t really seem to care about wine.

[ToddFrench]

@Robert_Dentice

In my opinion, they don’t really seem to care about wine.

Since they are buying into the wine industry, they should soon care!