Career Advice: V&E degree?

Hey folks. I’ve been lurking here for some time, but have never posted. This is the best place I can think of to seek some career advice from a number of individuals who have made it farther down the line in this industry than I have.

Anyhow, long story short, I didn’t realize that winemaking was what I wanted to do for a living until after I graduated college and began helping out a family friend who is a grower near my hometown - this would be the 2010 harvest. After that I went to the Mosel Valley and worked in the vineyard/cellar for a few months and went to Virginia last fall as an intern. I’m heading to New Zealand shortly to do the harvest there. I’m hoping to go to France in the fall - I have a friend who works in the industry in Languedoc who is helping me try and find a place. My plan has basically been to work internships North/South/North/South (hemisphere) for a few years and then begin to try to get hired on somewhere in California.

I like to read the ads on winejobs.com just to keep aware of what the availability and conditions seem to be, and whats been preying on my mind recently is whether, after 3 or so years of working back-to-back harvests, I will be able to get a job without a degree? I try to study enology texts on my own, but I’ve already got two degrees and in a way would be reluctant to committing the time to getting another if it wasn’t important. Cost is also a worry - Davis is expensive and I doubt how much financial aid would be forthcoming for a 25 year-old who already has a degree.

So my question for you world-wise ladies and gentlemen is “in the current state of things, how important is an enology degree to seeking a career as a winemaker?” I’ll be delighted to hear any other career advice anyone feels led to give, as well as the bit about the degree.

Hi,

I’m pretty new here myself and am in a somewhat similar situation. I also studied something else prior to choosing to become a winegrower/maker. I can’t give you advise in terms of career as I’m not much further along than you in winemaking, though I may have done things in a reverse order. I can however tell you where I have found the most/least knowledge. I was fortunate enough to get a piece of land and have been preparing it for viticulture and habitation over the past three years or so.

I have taken a lot of UC Davis extension courses and have found them very helpful, particularly since they give you good access to information and will leave you with a very good reference list. You get what you put in, but if it’s your passion the information is presented. I’ve found the general viticulture extension classes (there are 4 of them offered quarterly) pretty basic, though very helpful if you have no idea what is going on (probably not the case for you). I think you could replace these with a few strategic readings on grape vine physiology and vineyard management. Let me know if you’d like a list of Vit or Enology books as I travel around like a human turtle with an overloaded bag of texts. I’ve found the more specialized Viticulture classes, such as the rootstock ID and grapeVine ID classes at Davis to be pretty good and science based with a lot of useful information.

In terms of enology, I enrolled in the online certificate program for winemaking. I’ve really enjoyed it. The introductory course is basic, but gives a very good grounding in all of the wine regions (it’s an introduction). It also kind of seems to serve as a weed out course for the rest of the program as it gets much more intense after the first course. Some people will talk down on Davis for teaching to a very scientific and production scale system. I personally think that it is very good to understand the science behind what you are doing and to have a replicable framework. Once you have the framework down and understand all of the processes, then you can play. It’s like jazz. I can say that after finishing half of the courses I felt comfortable making a barrel of wine on my own and feel I have a pretty good grasp on all of the processes I am trying to control and manipulate (PH, TA, ML, Fermentation, SO2 additions). I didn’t do everything perfectly and I definitely have plans for improvement next year, but the wine is decent and aging comfortably. I think it’s fine to “let nature take it’s course” in winemaking at times in an attempt to express terroir or produce unique flavors, however I think it is also very good to understand why and how you are letting this happen. Knowledge is power.

The winemaking certificate program isn’t cheap but it is significantly less than a 3 year degree, and you can finish it a bit faster (though I think it will end up taking me about that long with waiting lists for courses). You can also work all over the world while you are taking the coursework, thus allowing you to get education and experience simultaneously. I would say you do not learn as much about hands on analysis in the distance format, but you can get that training either, (1) in the field or (2) at another Davis extension workshop. Alternatively you can get a professional lab to test the more critical values for you, instead of doing the analysis yourself. Youtube also has myriad videos on how to do SO2 titration and other wine analysis. I really like the two and three day workshop format that Davis uses for its in person extension courses, they are a lot of information at once, but it keeps you from being tied down near Davis for an extended period of time in order to take a course.

I know I sound like a Davis devotee, and I’m not saying that everything they do is perfect. However I have learned as much about viticulture and enology and where to find additional practical information in three years of strategic courses from them while still working and not being tied to a given location as I learned in 4 years of undergraduate about my chosen major. Part of that may be my increased enthusiasm for V&E over my previous major, but I will still say I’ve learned a lot and in terms of time and money committed I think it is worth it.

A degree really only tells someone you have the followthrough to complete a long term commitment. Since I feel I already had this, I figure the rest of my success at winemaking will depend on my practical, usable knowledge of V&E.

That’s my two cents.

Best,
Chris

I was crossing this bridge four years ago after working in the industry for five years as a cellar rat, lab schmuck and assistant winemaker (salaried cellar rat and lab schmuck), wondering if I needed a master’s degree to get a decent winemaking job. Then I figured I’d be less in debt and get more experience if I just started making wine for myself and consulting/contracting for others. Now I have way more work than I can handle, a handful of labels, employees, paperwork, taxes, etc. The winemaking is the easy/fun part. The business and marketing are a different story… Long story short: if you can find great winemakers to work with and teach you, you’ll become a better winemaker OTJ than you ever will with your nose in a book. Touch is more important than science, and the chemistry that you need to know is not that complex, anyhow.

Many thanks for the imput, guys. Good points all round.

If the question is whether you need a V&E degree to be a good winemaker, the answer is no. 100% (maybe 120%) of winemakers without a degree will tell you so, and most of the winemakers with one would, too. Whether or not you should take that route is really a matter of your personality, your learning style, comfort level etc. Some people just jump in and start companies or work their way up from the mailroom to executives, and others go to b-school first…both can make good managers/businesspeople.

Your question based on the post seems to be whether you need a V&E degree to get hired by someone. That is a bit of a trickier question. The labor market in our industry is most definitely a buyer’s one at the moment. There have been seller’s markets in the past, but not for a while. I can tell you that all the postings you saw from this area for “apprentice winemakers - AW, Enologists, etc” have resulted in Inbox floodings. Even those without postings and spread word of mouth have as well. So that is up to whomever is reviewing those CVs…what are they looking for? Depends on that person. If you [the employer] decide you want some sort of training, at least in science if not Enology, that’s an easy way to eliminate a lot of people right off the bat. In general, looking for someone who has proven they can do what you need, either by experience or by education, makes a potential employer very comfortable. But once you start talking to people, you realize you’re going to be spending about 3,000 hours a year with them and depending heavily on them, so the things that got them to the interview start to matter less than the personal qualities you see.

There are plenty of cases of folks catching on and building a career with no training, but a lot of that is being in the right place at the right time - working a crush and kicking ass just as someone’s assistant leaves or the winery is expanding and decides to hire one for the first time, for example. In essence, there is some luck to it. Like every other line of work, those with talent, gumption, great work ethic, etc, will be noticed and will go far. Sometimes it takes the piece of paper to get the foot in the door and sometimes not. And, frankly, a lot of those people are the personality types who want to keep improving and learning, so often take night classes at NVC, for example, and may wind up earning a degree/certificate of some sort.

From my point of view, an AA from one of the JCs or the UCD certificate program carry a lot of weight in hiring as an AW or Enologist. Going all-in on a $40K MS may not be necessary. Once you start climbing the ladder, though, potential employers might want to see an advanced degree and it may make the difference between one candidate and another.

So, sorry, but it’s tough to say. Starting a career is a journey and you never know where it will take you. When I started down this road, I never would have guessed in a million years that I would be where I am right now. Things come up and happen, wineries are bought and sold, opportunities come up by chance, and so on. I would say roll with it if you have the chance and keep in mind your goals and how you can realistically reach them.

Vague enough?

Addendum: Of course, if you decide the route for you is to start making wine for yourself, this is all moot.

I would posit that Ian is correct that making the wine will be the easy part and your success will rest much more on your ability to market and sell wine than any piece of paper or learning, maybe even moreso than on your talent as a winemaker.

Some good examples (with about 30 seconds of thinking - there are many more no doubt) of folks around here that did not start out with degrees/certs (but may have eventually gained them): Tony Soter (I think he took some classes here and there, but AFAIK, never received a V&E degree), Thomas Brown (IIRC), Nicki Pruss from Stag’s Leap, Ashley Hepworth from JPV, Jonah Beer, the GM at Frog’s Leap. I hate to bring it up, but Holdredge…in fact, has anyone ever verified that he even has a JD? Suspect at best… :wink:

No, I don’t think it was vague. My question was more about being hired than about needing the training to be a good winemaker. I’ve jumped through plenty of hoops at college - I know there isn’t much they would teach me that I couldn’t learn by myself if I’m dedicated. I will try to take some extension or online classes at Davis or something, but mostly whats been worrying me is being able to get that first job when the time comes. I’ve been working in the industry since the '10 harvest, and I play to do two harvests this year, two harvests next year, and then maybe another southern hemisphere harvest in early '14 while beginning to try and apply for some jobs in the USA.

The Endless Crush is great for a resume. No questions will linger about you knowing your way around a winery or doing cellar work.

However, there are another 9 months of the year, and, as much as I wish it were so, we don’t just go on vacation for that time. Again going back to someone hiring an “apprentice”, degree or not, they’re looking for someone to hand off some work to, and again, someone who has done it before and thus has proven they can take it and run with it always brings a warm fuzzy feeling.

A list of stuff besides “winemaking” that most of us have to do: inventory management, 702 reporting, state and federal excise tax returns, budgeting, label approvals and other associated TTB endeavors, managing packaging materials, bottling and related activities, pesticide reports, grape crush reports, facilities maintenance, preparing export documents, shipping and receiving of wine bulk or bottled, recruiting or dismissing buyers or sellers of grapes/wine/custom crush services, HR, grower relations, contract reviews or re-negotiations, forecasting, stormwater reporting, hazmat reporting, wastewater reporting, capital improvements and then all the various marketing activities. Guys like Adam Lee need to do all his sales-related compliance stuff for all the various states he ships to as well.

Also, there is a lot that goes on in the winery in the “off” season that is a little different than crush. Mostly related to barrel work (uncomplicated) and finishing wines to prep for bottle (can sometimes be complicated).

What I’m getting at is that someone looking for and assistant/Enologist might want to see that you’ve gone for a full cycle or two somewhere. Not just crushing and fermenting wine, but finishing it too. Don’t get me wrong, 8 harvests in 4 years looks great, but sticking somewhere for a little longer (even if it’s just an extended internship where you hang around and help bottle some early-to-bottle SB or something) might be beneficial. As would something like a class on compliance (NVC offers one of those and the TTB often puts on seminars where they cover all of it for you).

And, by the way, a place like UCD covers “0” of the “non-winemaking” stuff in the standard curriculum (I do recall a graduate-level course in Winery Design that had some CBA analysis components to it). As I think is appropriate, honestly.

I actually thought the same thing as I read your plans. I’d be reluctant to hire someone who had spent 4 years jumping crush to crush. Harvest interns I can get easy. I’m more interested in someone who can go through a complete cycle with us. Crush and harvest are great, but truth is that’s when I need strong backs more than skilled workers. I’m making the calls then and involved in everything. Bottling, racking, topping, that stuff I’d like to hand off or have experienced help with.

My most recent hire spent the last 7 years working as the bar manager at Chevy’s. She’s smart, works hard, isn’t afraid to clean, listens well, learns fast and focuses on details. She learned what clamps went to what hoses and which hoses to hook up for each task in a week. That’s more valuable than I can tell you. She’s just finished pruning 6+ acres. She gopher hunts at least once a week and has cleared gophers out of two vineyards. She’s done a round of dormant sulfur spraying and a round of weed spraying. Last week she learned how to pull samples, clean barrels and check pH and free and total Sulfur. She’s also managed all our pick ups at CWT and done our mailing list packing and shipping. I’m teaching her how to sulfur barrels tomorrow.

I’d bet by 2014 if her resume, your resume and a recent V&E grads resume showed up together, she’d get the interview.

If you want to get hired, get to know people who own wineries. Most winemakers I know are more likely to hire someone they know and like rather than a resume because a) you have to trust this person a lot and b) you have to spend a lot of time with this person. But if you want a stable job with a good salary and benefits like you might find at a larger or corporate winery, a V&E degree will be a huge help.

Paul - I’m not sure what you’re trying to say here. Given the way the system seems to work, I’m not sure how its fair to fault someone for working successive crushes for a few years? At the moment, its all that is available to me. I would love to be working in a winery year round, but unfortunately I had to come home to Tennessee after my last internship. I think you might have also missed the part where my career began in the vineyard. The things that you’re praising your recent hire for are largely things I’ve done - harvest '10 I was working for a grower who is a family friend, and I was in the vineyard and cellar in the Mosel last spring - pruning, building trellises, monitoring disease, dealing with wild pigs, tying down canes, bottling, and blending. I’m actually leaving this weekend to go back to VA to work for my employer from this past fall to work in the vineyard for a few weeks as well.

I don’t mean to sound aggressive defending the way I’m trying to do things; I appreciate your helping to advise me. [thumbs-up.gif] I’m just not sure what alternative path you’re suggesting.

So you’re suggesting I might look into trying to get a job as a cellar hand somewhere for a year or so, or the extended internship thing if possible? From my experience so far the problem will be finding someone who can budget to keep me an extra couple of months.

And thats really one of the hard parts. I’m from TN, and I go home to Nashville in between harvests. The low pay and travel costs and have put me in a bad way already - after coming home from harvest 2011 I wasn’t able to find work, jobs being hard to come by and myself being unwilling to lie about the fact that I was leaving in March when asked. In fact, I wouldn’t be going to NZ at all if it weren’t for generous family members determined to help me realize my dream.

I’m just thinking out loud about what someone looking to hire an AW or Enologist might be thinking they want. It’s competitive right now, especially trying to get hired as a sight-unseen, faceless resume. The more you can shape yourself into someone who has a shot, the better. And then kill the interviews, of course…make it a question of how they could not hire you. Or, the best route is not to be a sight-unseen, faceless resume, but again there is some luck to being the right person in the right place at the right time.

The internship extended into some finishing and bottling is pretty common, especially for people who produce Sauv blanc/Rose or other early-to-bottle wines (or reds on a cycle to be bottled during the winter). Harvest is usually barely done before it’s time to start assembling the blend and get the bottling ball rolling.

I feel for you. It wasn’t all that long ago I was in your shoes, and I know the uncertainty causes problems for people who like to have a plan/control. I started as a cellar rat in 2001 and did some Endless Crush-type stuff, but took the graduate school route in between. Lots of begging, borrowing and stealing along the way, crashing wherever I could and living hand-to-mouth at times (and still working on some student loans), although keep in mind there are a lot of people in this country who have it a lot worse, no matter how bad it seems to get. At least you are chasing a dream and have the luxury to weigh the options and make your choices. I sold everything I owned to go overseas and try to find a way to stay out of as much student loan debt as I could. There is always the option of waiting tables or whatever at night while working on the end goal. In these parts, that can actually be pretty darn profitable.

Best advice is to be the best, whatever you do and wherever you do it. People notice, and people talk to one another and people like to help out youngsters who show a lot of promise. You want to be the first person that pops into their head when they get asked if they know an up and comer for a position.

Good luck with the decision on school and the rest of it. It should be an exciting time, with the opportunity to go in whatever direction you choose. That doesn’t last forever, FYI. Enjoy it and embrace it.

Hey MHWhite,

Keep the dream alive!

I grew up in Memphis. If it is at all possible for you to stay in California or another wine region for an extended period of time I would say it will be valuable to you. You are more likely to be in the right place at the right time if you live around winegrowing.

Go around to wineries and introduce yourself, go on tastings, buy a bottle, ask questions, be the kid in the group that wants to always know more. Work in a tasting room for a small winery. If you can’t get that job, work in a higher end restaurant so you can learn more from their wine list and while frequenting tasting rooms and wineries and taking extension courses or working towards a grad degree. Find a style you like and make friends with a few winemakers that produce that way. Pick a region and get to know people, build personal relationships centered on your passion for wine. Even if someone won’t hire you today they might talk to their neighbor tomorrow or next week or next year and think of you as an excellent possible employee.

In terms of getting hired, what sort of employee at what sort of establishment do you want to be? What is your goal? An MBA with emphasis in finance and accounting with a good general knowledge of wine might get you hired at a bigger winery making more money than a degree in V&E.

Best of luck,
Chris

Really the same thing as Nate said. A winery is going to prefer to see someone who has worked through an entire year of activity vs someone doing as he said “endless crush”. They are going to want to know that your committed to a region, that you want to stay and you’re not just a ‘travel romantic’. I know your pain in getting there and making a living on little or no pay.

As Ian said, Jaye got the job with me because I know her and trust her completely. I know she’s in with me for the long haul and willing to do any task I need her too. I’d hire Ian in a flash too because I know him and trust him also. Breaking through that trust barrier is hard and I just think you’d have an easier time of it if a winery saw you’d committed to one place and one winery for an extended time. The trick is putting food on the table while you do that. Believe me, I know that.

In my opinion having a degree is not necessary to make great wine. That being siad when I review a potential candidates resume and see that they have a BS in Enology or Viticulture it is an indication to me that they have made a commitment to the winemaking profession. The last thing I want to have happen is to hire someone, spend a year training them, and then have them decide winemaking isn’t what they want to do. Having a BS shows me that you are prepared for and understand the long hours, low pay and lack of recognition. If the person does not have a BS I look at their work history and listed references. I need to see a good list and that they have a solid foundation to build on before I will hire them. I have hired people with a BS and I’ve hired people without. After an interview or two and calling their references I have a pretty good idea who will fit in best in the cellar.

If I were you I would find a wine region that you feel passionately about. Find a job, any job in that region. A local bar where winemakers like to hang out is always a good place to start. Use your days off to connect with the local wineries. Offer to work a few hours for free on your days off. Apply for harvest intern positions in the area. Work your butt off and make yourself indispensable. If you make a great impression as an intern the word will get out in the community. If the winery you intern for doesn’t have a full time position available they will often know someone who does or at least point you in the right direction. It is a tough road harvest hopping. But outside of going to school there really isn’t any other way to build your resume and make the contacts you need to land a fulltime position.

Best of luck.

Right, lots of good advice both in the thread and directly here. Where do you want to be? Go there.