Can't get a good steak in France or Italy

Epicurean Exploits - Food and Recipes
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Steve,

"You, Bill, and others here, want to disqualify my point of view."

Incorrect.You,as well as the rest of the human race,are entitled to your POV,as long as you understand it is just that,one man’s voice in the wilderness,and not an established edict,standard or code of ethics accepted by any nondescript entity that you may wish to set up.

"But what is silly about your position is that in the world of food, you are outliers. No one cares about how you guys feel about it. There is no intellectual discussion that presents your position, and there is not a single piece of literature I can think of that validates your position."

This is just the height of arrogance.Equally,why do you think that anyone cares about how you feel about anything,because to advance an opinion as fact,fact,as some world wide accepted standard… that is patent bullshit and you have been called on it by many knowledgeable people here who are beyond your frame of reference,experience and intelligence.You will get much better back and forths if you preface your “information” with IMO or from my experience rather than categorically claiming that something is…just because you say it.
You can talk about all the restaurants you want and all the chefs you have met and all the videos in which you have participated ,yet there are many,many others here who are equally if not more worldly traveled with more sophisticated palates and more even dispositions to give others the benefit of the doubt,and yet you still act as if you and only you are the final arbiter of taste and the appreciation of it.
You isolate yourself from a wide world of experience and knowledge in a feeble attempt to display/sell a distorted and incomplete sense of self worth,knowledge and “position.”


"So when I use the term “important” that is what I mean. And there is a vibrant discussion in cuisine that is going on. And I assure you that the discussion looks at cuisine through a prism that is pretty much in line with the one I use."

Really?
Reality as seen through your prism is exclusive and superior?
Do you miss the conceit and manufactured exclusivity here?
It’s really embarrassing…

"Tom Blach - You and I are talking at cross purposes."

This is your patented Obfuscation and deflection.
You refuse/are unable to answer any of these posters who disagree with you here on point without diving into your refuge of exclusivity,self deluded sense of importance and continuing to try to portray yourself as a font of knowledge on subjects of which is usually incorrect…and actually comes across as ignorance.

142

Well said. I totally agree.

Revisionist.

143

Boy am I late to this party. I am amazed that the powers that be, Mods, and Todd have allowed the vitriol that is displayed in this thread to go unrestrained. That aside, a great read nevertheless.

144

Bill Boykin - My point of view is not one man’s voice in the wilderness. It is in line with the larger discussion of cuisine that is taking place today. There are food congress’s and conventions taking place all over the world that adhere to that point of view. There is Madrid Fusion, Omnivore, the MAD Conference, Cook it Raw, there is an annual conference that takes place in Lima each year, and these congresses are happening all over the world. Each and every one of them looks at food from the same perspective as I do. But there is not a single convention, congress or gathering that I know of that chefs attend that look at food through the lens that Bill or Tom is espousing. Here look:

http://www.madridfusion.net/index.php?lang=EN

Then there are publications:

http://fool.se

http://www.apiciususa.com/magazine.htm

Can someone please post a link to a food festival that working chefs attend that is not in line with the point of view that is espoused at the above conventions or publications? Or can you or Bill or Tom for that matter, show me what a chef in a trattoria or a noodle soup restaurant does if he wants to learn how to improve his cooking?

The whacky part of this is that you guys keep claiming this is a matter of my opinion. It’s not. I am conveying facts about today’s dining scene. Just click any of the links above and the evidence will be right in front of your eyes. The truth is that the people on this thread are not interested in the current dialogue about cuisine. That’s fine. But I do not understand how anyone can think that they truly understand cuisine if they are not part of that discussion. All of the points you are arguing for are included in the larger discussion of cuisine that is taking place. It’s just that the discussion is not limited to those points the way you are insisting.

I eat Chinese food all of the time and the two best Chinese dishes I have ever tasted had nothing to do with China. It was a pork fat dish made by Ferran Adria, and a Shanghai soup bun made by Corey Lee at Benu in San Francisco. Neither of those chefs are Chinese, but they have both studied Chinese cooking in the larger context of all cuisine, and they were able to use culinary techniques that were foreign to Chinese cooks in order to make a better version of those dishes than a Chinese chef could make. In general, Chinese chefs have just not kept up with what has happened in the international dining scene in the same way and the restaurants suffer as a result. In addition, if a Chinese chef figured out how to make a better soup bun, it would cost more than $10 for an order. That is because craftsmanship and cost go hand in hand.

145

Thanks for singling me out, Steve, but I’m not sure why the segment is addressed to me. I’m not sure what view you are espousing (other than “my view is truth”). but my comment was directed to Tom’s comment that your comment over-trivialized/minimized Chinese cuisine. Not having had Adria’s pork ft dish or Lee’s xiaolongbao, I can’t evaluate your statements that they exceeded what Chinese chefs can do as a result of the addition of Western techniques, but (having lived in China for a while) I doubt it. I guess it’s possible if your standard is globalization of cuisine, but it is not mine. I appreciate autheticity in great dishes.

For the record, I happen to enjoy your writing and work product, generally, and am envious of your ability to travel the glove eating at the restaurants you do.

146

Dave I am sorry. I thought it was your post I was responding to but now I realize it was Bill’s and I fixed it.

I have heard the authenticity argument many times and I do not understand how authenticity trumps better technique? I have asked many people to explain it to me and the answer always is anthropological or sociological and has nothing to do with cuisine. The fact that someone has made won ton broth the same way for 10,000 years has no bearing on whether a new piece of equipment has come along which makes a clearer, more intensely flavored broth. Or that some chef has figured out that if he makes his broth, and then immediately freezes it using a medical deep freezer, before reheating it again, ends up with a better product. Cooking is about technology and I have a hard time understanding an argument where authenticity trumps technology. More flavor is more flavor, period. What is the argument to prefer less flavor?

147

Doesn’t compute. If so, he should like Rice-a-Roni.

148

Bingo

149

I think the argument is to prefer authentic flavor (don’t mess with my pastrami!), but I don’t like arguing about it generally. It takes away from the pleasure.

150

Bill - You know I am sorry to say I have never had Rice-a-Roni. I grew up in a kosher home, and things like Rice-a-Roni were tabu. And when I got older and moved into my own place, I wasn’t in the habit of buying food that came in a box. But if it matters to you guys, I will officially declare that I like Rice-a-Roni, providing that having tasted it is not a predicate to reaching a conclusion. I mean that’s the standard people like Bill Klapp and others are using about cuisine in general so why shouldn’t I use it for Rice-a-Roni champagne.gif

Dave - Why would I want authentic flavor if the flavor is inferior to the flavor of something that is prepared in a way that is not authentic? You lost me on that one. I mean what is wrong with choosing the best result regardless of whether the methodology is authentic or not? And nobody likes pastrami more than I do. But if someone creates a better way of preparing it, why would I not prefer that to the traditional way if that tastes worse?

151

I have a serious question about keeping Kosher. I am respective of peoples wishes and would obviously NOT serve pork, lobster, etc. to someone keeping Kosher. But, if I do cook something on the grill the day before a Jewish friend comes over that is not Kosher, are any special requirements needed to ‘cleanse’ said grill?

152

It depends on how kosher your friend is. If he is relatively orthodox, he would probably not eat off of the grill regardless of how well you cleaned it… But if we are merely talking about someone who keeps kosher at home, a good scrubbing down with soap and water should do the trick. I have many friends who keep kosher, and who eat fish in a restaurant when they know that the griddle the fish was cooked on was used to cook shrimp or non-kosher meat. So most of the time the issue is whether you made an effort to clean it or not.

153

We could have an entire thread on this. The short answer is that “it’s complicated” and really depends upon what that person means when they say that they “keep Kosher.” However, for people that are serious about this, it means that they are eating food off of dishes that have only EVER touched glatt Kosher (certified by a Rabbi) products. The same goes for all utensils, all pots, etc. Kashrut encompasses what animals are eligible to be eaten, how are they slaughtered and then drained of blood, what parts of the animal are (in)eligible, separation of all meat/dairy/fish (no meat&dairy and no meat&fish), and then down to pots, utensils etc. Now some people just avoid shellfish and pork and think that is enough to say that they “keep Kosher.”

BTW, on the grill question, I have had long conversations with an Orthodox rabbi. Fire is uniquely cleansing, so roaring the grill full blast for 30 minutes is enough to actually kasher it.

154

Cool. That is exactly what I needed to hear.

155

What vitriol? And the read is about to get better. Who knows, Ron, no promises, but this could be the thread that gets the starch out of your boxer shorts and shows you what the Internet can become when the smartest guys in the room try to teach a total asshat something. It will fail, but it will be fun while it lasts!

Steve, bear with me. I had to work today. I do at least want to do you the courtesy of sifting through this thread, creating a Steve Plotnicki Greatest Hits list and addressing your points, should they prove discernible, with a personal goal of agreeing with you at least once during the odyssey…

156

Who is the smartest guy in the room?

157

I am still waiting to hear if Bill Klapp agrees with me that craftsmanship is not subjective, and is something that can be measured? I have asked that question three times and he has yet to answer. I am starting to feel like he is afraid to answer it. It is a simple yes or no question. Why not answer the question so the discussion can move on? Come to think of it, I can’t think of a single reason why he would disagree so what’s the big deal with answering?

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Time to do the job right, and only that. It is dinner time here. Thinking of cooking up a little Maratelli or Vialone Nano rice with some tagliatelle and a little brodo. Ri-Sot-To-Roni, the Piemontese treat!

160

And one other thing. Bill are you drunk? Someone just sent me a private message and told me you have a drinking problem, and that you can tell the time of the day it is in Italy by how big of a dick you are being because you get drunker as the day goes on. Is that true? Would you like me to pay for your AA classes? I am perfectly willing to sell off some of my kosher hot dog inheritance and pay for you to go to Alcoholic’s Anonymous. It appears that a number of people here feel you need to go, but would never bring that up on the board. But as you must know by now, I am not afraid to speak the truth to drunken power.