I always thought that the definition of a “natural wine” was one that was not spoofilated. (which see)
And that the test to determine whether or not it was natural was whether Alice Fiering liked it (witch see).
And thanks Eric and Brian for being so civilized and not condemning the other to perdition for having differing opinions.
I’ve enjoyed Tony himself for several years as well as many of his wines, though some are already massive fruit bombs on release. He has told me many times that he cellars many of his wines for 10-15 years and they’re still “good”. Sounds like you’d take issue with him on that. I’ve always wondered if that is really the case or if he’s become accustomed to his own wine.
BTW- the only wine of his I’ve found to be of ‘normal’ palate has been a field blend he makes from time to time. I used to like one of his Zins a lot, but always told customers is was more like a late harvest than what they’d expect.
Since there is no legal definition or certification it has to be regarded as a marketing term, as was said earlier. Hate to sound cynical but it’s probably just to play off the popular “green” movement.
There’s absolutely nothing wrong with sustainable farming and as little chemical intervention in amy food product, but I have to classifiy this one right up there with “reserve” wine.
And that’s my issue with using the word “natural”. I don’t want to start down the path of who’s wine is more natural. That gets us no where. And in the end, I think it often degrades to pure marketing. And I hate that.
Wine should be about terroir. Wine should be about differences and distinctions between sites. Wine should be about a well made product enjoyed by people who actually drink the stuff. And however the winemaker acheives his goal is interesting, but not that important to me. Just like whether an artist uses oil or watercolor, or stone or clay - good art is good art. Provided they don’t do something illegal, unethical, or endanger the consumer.
End of rant (I’d use the emoticons, but they don’t seem to be working for me)
Thanks for your detailed responses. Sounds like this is a change. I would find it interesting to know why you changed. Also, you emphasized that you “definitely” don’t destem. Again, why?
Thanks for the education.
Don’t stop “ranting.” The one thing I think I have learned about winemaking is that pretty much all great winemakers seem to think there is only one way to make great wine - the way they make it. Doesn’t mean at all that the great winemakers have any agreement on what that one way is. I have concluded that in some ways it probably is the passion rather than the specific method that is the most important - the method may determine style (and whether or not I personally will like the wine) but the passion seems to determine quality.
Gosh, some people can be so cynical - calling something a “marketing term” when it doesn’t even appear on the label of any of the wines associated with the moniker.
Maybe it really is as simple as it sounds - a convenient shorthand to describe various methods of making wine. People who don’t care to know the methods of the wines they drink can ignore it.
But here’s the paradoxical part: in certain cases manipulation may well better express terroir while lack of intervention obscures terroir. If you have a high alcohol wine, that alcohol will mask many of the other terroir-specific qualities. It’s true the high alcohol is part of the terroir, but I’d argue it is also getting in the way of other components. Reduce the alcohol and the expression of other elements is revealed.
On the opposite front, a native ferment that produces crazy amounts of VA and perhaps Bretty funk is also getting in the way of terroir expression, though in some sense it is also expressing terroir. If your terroir gives you must that stresses the yeast or favors the growth of certain yeast and bacteria over others resulting in powerful stinky and aggressive smells, that is indeed terroir. I even strongly suspect Brett expression is affected by the fruit itself. But again this very specific expression of the terroir comes at the expense of masking other elements.
It’s probably easier as others have suggested to define what isn’t natural. Obvious spoofulation isn’t natural. But beyond that, the grey area is very broad.
I find people who don’t care about the wine-making methods (average wine drinkers who don’t read wine internet but have an ongoing interest), then when they learn about natural, organic, biodynamic, etc, they tend to cling to it fiercely to that drinking ideaology, as I learned working at Chambers Street Wines. Don’t know why.
For me the big arbiter, is spoofilated vs. non-spoofilated. I won’t drink spoofilated wine whether natural, organic or biodynamic, marketed or not marketed, pineau d’aunis or pinot noir. I just won’t (can’t) do it. It’s the equivalent of drinking Coke or eating Mcdonalds. I’ve never been in a natural, biodynamic, organic camp, but for sure, an un-spoofilated camp.
Rant every-continuing . . . .
But one does see sans souffre/no sulfite wine being labeled as such. This is nice for people with sulfite allergies to know, but it also sucks in people who don’t understand what sulfites are. They think it’s some poisonous chemical and have no idea its simply a preservative that’s traditionally been used for centuries. There are much more suspicious preservatives used in all varieties of processed food.
As a shorthand, natural is just too broad to have any meaning. I find terms such as traditional, progressive, modern and so on to be more descriptive.
I know of a winemaker who likes to do naked (au naturel) punchdows… does that count as Natural winemaking? does it matter where the terroir comes from? Just asking…
depends when his/her last shower was.
Is this your version of transparency?
It ain’t a her…it is a him… and let me say this, I won’t buy this guy’s wine for a lot of reason’s…much has to do with him as a person, but y’all around here seem to love ‘em… which makes me cringe every time I see a tasting note… just sayin’ …
actually…this is an example of when I would INSIST on fining and sterile-filtration 
Really… new perspective for ya?
Very interested . . .
Lyle, you’d hate them anyhow…definitely not what I think you would like style wise…
I suspected as much and I am way behind on the latest board darlings…
Natural wines can be so many things. I have no idea what makes them natural, for SURE. But, every once in a while, I go to the Chambers Stree wine store and search the “natural” wines and order a bunch of stuff I never heard of. I find that I like - love, and about 80% of them. Some being extremely different, even weird. I’m no student of any of that stuff, but I like the ones I get from Chambers. whoever is (are) in charge of that stuff, does a tremendous job. I need to make another purchase!