Yes, I understood that. I’m with you, and tend to view Keith’s comments as somewhat crass. Despite that, I don’t think taking personal shots at people does much to advance the conversation in a productive manner, but I certainly understand and share your frustration when reading comment’s like Keith’s.
One could only assume her view since it is not clearly stated. I polled my three daughters and wife, ages 46, 23, 18, and 17, and they basically LOLed that the terms properly used could be offensive or crass.
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WB!
shine on you crazy diamond . . .
![[cheers.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/0/0ff9bfcdb0964982cd3240b6159868fbdf215b1a.gif "cheers"){kind=small}
I really don’t think it’s generational.
I grew up in the 1970s and gender roles were not particularly strictly defined then. Mainstream America over the last 50 years was never anything like Saudi Arabia or the Handmaids Tale. What has changed more than roles is the linguistic etiquette of talking about both gender roles and physical sex itself.
So you claim that anyone who questions the appropriateness of these words, without any questioning of banning or censorship, is accusing you of a thoughtcrime (where is the post that did that?), thus bringing out the heavy guns of Orwell for wine descriptors and make some quotation, which does not seem to precisely be Orwell (are you sureptitiously quoting yourself?) and then you accuse others of protesting too much? To my knowledge, alas, Shakespeare never said anything about projection, though Iago’s remarks about reputation do come to mind and especially Alan Simpson quoting them as if they were intended to be taken straight, during the Clarence Thomas hearings…
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Luca Brasi would have made a great wine critic. Probably liked wines like family offspring.
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I don’t really recall seeing a wine ever expressed as a one-liner, except perhaps for some yahoo in Cellartracker who thinks less wordage is better. Just as any one word descriptor is “reductive”.
Words can change all the time, but sometimes meanings don’t as much. I’m old enough to remember people going from negro to colored to black to African-American, but it still hasn’t changed the characteristic of skin tone.
There were several examples in this very thread where users described a wine as simply ‘masculine’ or ‘feminine.’
From Andremily’s release yesterday, masculine and feminine descriptors.
In our Fall 2020 offering we were pleased to share the more masculine side of our lineup; we are even more excited to share what we consider the more feminine side of things. Two wines with grace and elegance, beauty and depth, all while maintaining that signature Andremily style. Yes, you read that correct, not one but two wines! Last year we introduced you to EABA / “ee-buh” /, or End All Be All. Our what if, why not, what are we waiting for Rhone blend, comprised of the very best lots in our cellar. The response to this wine was absolutely wonderful, in the middle of a pandemic no less. We regularly receive notes from customers asking for more. Well, here is your chance. The 2018 Andremily EABA is a hauntingly delicious blend of 59% Syrah, from Bien Nacido & Harrison-Clarke Vineyards, paired with 23% Mourvedre, and 15% Grenache, from Alta Mesa & Larner Vineyards, and finished off with a splash of Viognier for good measure. The 2018 Andremily EABA was 60% whole cluster fermented and brought up in 50% new French oak. This beauty leaps from the glass offering a heady bouquet of black and blue fruits, white pepper, and Herbs de Provence. Possessing a slightly fuller texture than its older sibling, while still retaining plenty of lift. The 2018 Andremily EABA is an extraordinarily delicious wine, that is certain to find itself on the list of our very best ever. You do not want to miss this beauty!
As opposed to those to try to impose unofficial standards on speech?
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I looked up my CT notes. Out of 1000 notes I have used feminine 9 times, and masculine 7 times, both once in the same note. None since 2013. I felt all times but 2 the terms were well used, and with many other adjectives and perceptions to go along. The 2 were in the Bueker et. al. category as not descriptive enough to help in the note. I was surprised at how few times I have used the terms.
Side note, old notes can be funny/humbling to read. I think I express my thoughts better now. Who knows, in 10 years, I might say the same thing…
At Keller Estate, we’ve had both male and female winemakers. At the end, I’m always the style, blend ultimate decision maker. I can say that we’ve had powerful, intense female made wines, and delicate, subtle male made wines. I have really steered away from assigning gender to wines. Words like structure, intensity, depth, softness, subtlenss, they can all be in a wine. Our Keller Estate “El Coro” Pinot Noir tends to have delicate rose petal and hibiscus aromas, then forest earthy notes emerge, followed by a very finely structured tannin structure. Personally the wine is ethereal, and no need to assign gender. 
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You mean anyone with an opinion?
I have on occasion over the years used “feminine” or “masculine” as an adjective in a TN, but I’ve never for a moment thought that it had anything to do with male vs female winemakers. Just a vague literary metaphor for the feel of the wine itself. There are a lot of female winemakers and winery owners out there and I’ve never noticed much of a style correlation. But if someone spots me a Heidi Barret Screagle I’ll think on it more deeply…
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The short answer (even in a gender neutral society) is that I think wine can accurately as famine and dare I say masculine.
Examples being Cayuse and Reynvaan - both phenomenal wines, both from Walla Walla, both vineyards right next to each and both personal favorites meaning I personally have enjoyed well over 100 of each.
IMO - Cayuse is more masculine while Reynvaan is more feminine - will stop here.
I certainly agree with Ana that the gender of the winemaker has little or nothng whatsoever do with a wine’s character.
However, I would point out that this is a separate issue from the vocabulary used to describe wines…
Certainly, a man can make an elegant, ethereal, charming wine, or a woman make a big, burly, vinous monster of a wine. No question.
You see, it’s the adjectives I’m more interested in.
In reading through this thread, I accept that the use of the terms masculine and feminine is simplistic. However, like so many other words we use to describe wine, they are easily understood (universal) and worthwhile if completed by other adjectives.
I fully accept that, on their own, or in a very limited tasting note, they are wanting.
Skating on thin ice here, I am aware that I used the word “universal” above. This goes on the assumptions that men and women are different, that the ways they are different are timeless and crosscultural, and that gender-ascribed characteristics are archetypal, despite praiseworthy advances in society’s acceptance of LGBT people. That assertion can, of course, be challenged, like any other point of view made on the internet. I don’t mean to upset or denigrate anyone.
Best regards,
Alex R.
I would certainly contest this point. It is, however, the real basis for defending the use of the terms. If one thinks that “masculine” and “feminine” correspond to natural realities, then, of course, the terms can function more or less usefully as metaphors. Not thinking they correspond to natural realities was my basis for questioning them.
To describe it as masculine, it is easy; not to describe it as masculine, it is not that difficult;
To describe it as feminine, it is also easy; not to also describe it as feminine, it is not also that difficult.
Whether to describe it as masculine or as feminine, it is actually lie within one’s kind heart and mind; and it is an art for one’s personality to express it peaceful in one society.
Sincerely - Peter Chiu.
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