California Pinot Noir Drinking Windows?

[Paul_H_Galli]

@Peter Simpson

I also think the jury is out on Arcadian. The 01’s became wonderful at around seven years but subsequent vintages haven’t come close to that level. They haven’t fallen apart but will they ever become great?

Peter, I could not disagree with you more.
IMO, Arcadian is the one CA Pinot that ages long and substantially improves in bottle.
It develops secondary and tertiary aromas and flavors like no other winery.
Joe has produced MANY great Pinots over his career. (not bad at Chardonnay either).
And if anything, the “jury” is pretty unanimous…

TTT

[Peter_Simpson]

@Tom Gutting

About out the door, but I’ll think a bit more on the wines that drink well early but also age well. WesMar is the first that comes to mind. Those wines are always approachable and aromatic, yet they just age with grace, effortlessly. A lot of the Swan wines are like that, although the Estate can shut down at times. Varies widely by vintage, although the 2013 seems to be one that will be open for business at all stages, much like the 2006 and 2008 were.

Tom, I will have to try WesMar, and agree the Swan wines are often approachable on release.

I suppose many producers wrestle with the fact that if they want to sell a significant amount to restaurants and at retail, then their wines have to taste good on release, and most likely will not be built to age.

The Hilt by Jonata have attempted to solve this problem by making two very different wines from Sanford & Benedict fruit; The Vanguard and The Old Guard. We tasted the 2014s recently and The Vanguard was firing on all cylinders while The Old Guard was muted and impenetrable. It will be interesting to track these two wines over the coming years. I wonder if there are other producers who do the same thing?

[Peter_Simpson]

@M. Dildine

Dehlinger Pinots age very well, as do Copain Pinots. Arnot-Roberts Pinots seem to be built to last.

Mike, yes I forgot Dehlinger, we’ve had some wonderful 20 year old Dehlinger Pinots at that special place in Florida. I don’t know if they are still built that way. I’ve never had a Copain, another winery I need to try!

[Peter_Simpson]

@Scott E.

I’m not sophisticated enough to create multiple drinking windows depending upon vintage, winery or other criteria, but I do age all of my Pinot for five years and in my experience (and just my opinion) it is a perfect length of time to provide a fully integrated and balanced drink with maybe more of the spice coming to the forefront and some of the fruit receding slightly. I don’t know that I would appreciate a Pinot with a lot more age on it (I’m the same with cabernet) anyway. Cheers!

Scott, interesting concept, and certainly worth considering! I’d need to find cellar space for an extra 150 bottles if I aged all my Pinot for five years, so that’s a bit of a negative. Who are your favorite producers?

[John_Morris]

If some Cal pinots don’t go the distance, I suspect it’s because they’re quite ripe and pretty low in acid.

@Frank Murray III

My main reference for this reply is Copain, as I have been drinking the PNs from there since 2006’s vintage. I recently tasted the 2006 Kiser En Haut and it was cruising right along. Moving forward a vintage, the 2007 Kisers in my view were fading. The 2007 En Haut is more than ready, and the recent En Bas was seeming to be at the apex. I plan to open another 2007 En Bas in the next few weeks, maybe this Friday night, actually. As for the 2009s, these are riper toned and in my mind ready to go, yet the 2010s are beautiful, structured and the recent 2010 Kiser En Haut was beautiful. No sign of slowing down, still flush with energy, structure and balance.

So, all in, I think based on producer, 10-15 years is doable, but when there is a warmer year, then I would be more cautious that those wines will age.

I opened an '09 Copain Les Voisins last night that was drinking very nicely. No real tertiary development, and I’m not sure if this blend will ever show that. But certainly very pleasant at eight years, and if I had more, I wouldn’t hesitate to hold on to if for a few more years.

I’m surprised that you’ve found some of the 07s at the end of their life, Frank. I opened an '07 Copain Monument Tree four years ago and felt it was in transition, not yet in a secondary phase. I figured it needed another five years at least (notes posted here).

My hunch is that the cooler, higher acid years will go longer. I take it from your comment that’s your surmise as well?

[K_R_Baker]

Those where I’ve found the most significant improvement with age:

Arcadian - Sleepy hollow and Pisoni from the late 90s/early 2000s were gorgeous at 10 - 12 years.
Rhys - '04 Home after 6 - 8 years was incredible. Jury is out on the rest, but I have high hopes.
Littorai - 8+ years for Thieriot

[Frank_Murray_III]

John, yes, I agree. 2007 shows riper to me than I prefer now at this age. Interesting though, the 2006s seem to be hanging in there. Couple TNs below for you. The Kiser En Haut surprised me this summer.

• 2006 Copain Pinot Noir “En Haut” Kiser - USA, California, North Coast, Anderson Valley (7/23/2017)
  Tasted as part of a Kiser En Haut vertical we did with Wells @ the winery. 13.3% ABV. I enjoyed this bottle far better than I did back in 2015 when I drank one from my cellar. Smoky note, reminds me a bit of the leather/pepper note of syrah. Expansive palate, showing good acidity, balance, herb and drinking great. Based on this bottle, I would say the 2006 is aging well and not fading.
• 2006 Copain Pinot Noir Wentzel Vineyard - USA, California, North Coast, Anderson Valley (1/27/2017)
  This continues to hang in there, with plenty of life. Acidity, leaner expression. Reminded me of Savigny les Beaune, more lightly constructed with red fruit and the supporting acidity. My last one.

Posted from CellarTracker

[David_Bu3ker]

2009 Anthill Farms Comptche Ridge Pinot was delicious this weekend with plenty of time to spare. Eight years post vintage is still a very young age for a high quality wine.

[Chris_Seiber]

@Paul H Galli

@Peter Simpson

I also think the jury is out on Arcadian. The 01’s became wonderful at around seven years but subsequent vintages haven’t come close to that level. They haven’t fallen apart but will they ever become great?

Peter, I could not disagree with you more.
IMO, Arcadian is the one CA Pinot that ages long and substantially improves in bottle.
It develops secondary and tertiary aromas and flavors like no other winery.
Joe has produced MANY great Pinots over his career. (not bad at Chardonnay either).
And if anything, the “jury” is pretty unanimous…

TTT

I’m with Paul. I’ve had dozens of bottles of Arcadian at 10-18 years old, there was only one that seemed like it might have been better to have opened earlier.

[larry_schaffer]

Well . . .YMMV comes into play here, right? As I’ve been told again and again, there are no great wines - just great bottles.

Cheers.

[G_Bienstock]

@Peter Simpson

@M. Dildine

Dehlinger Pinots age very well, as do Copain Pinots. Arnot-Roberts Pinots seem to be built to last.

Mike, yes I forgot Dehlinger, we’ve had some wonderful 20 year old Dehlinger Pinots at that special place in Florida. I don’t know if they are still built that way. I’ve never had a Copain, another winery I need to try!

05 Dehlinger Estate last night was excellent.

[Robert_Grenley]

Of course Williams-Selyem pinots from the Burt Williams years (1997 and before) are well known to age well.
A 1993 W-S Cohn V. And a 1995 W-S Rochioli V opened last night were still going strong, mature but fresh and not on a downward slope.

[Scott_Butler]

Rochioli SVD wines are fantastic with 15 year of age. I’d call their window 5-15 depending on how you prefer them. Though as Truett mentioned, they can go 20.

Mount Eden I’d probably call their drinking window 10-25 years, possibly even more.

Most others I like in the 5-10 range. I had a 2006 Dain last night that was really nice.

[Dennis_Borczon]

All of the respondents are correct, and all are essentially wrong (except for possibly the reports on 90’s Williams Selyem Pinots). The problem is that we didn’t have a bunch of obsessive-compulsive monks settle in Northern California 600 years ago and start growing grapes. Unfortunately most of us during our…ahem…rather brief lifetimes will ever get the answer to this question. Even drinking a 2006 Rhys that seems to be showing development is just a hint of what may come. 11 years in a couple of vineyards in the Rhys situation is a blink of an eye to understand a particular piece of ground, never mind the vagaries of climate, winemaking technique, barrels etc that enter the equation. Finding a consistent spot for pinot is just too hard to predict no matter how good the science of viticulture at this time. It’s why people pay such extraordinary $$$ for those spots on earth where ageable pinots are consistently produced. I am entertained by reading this thread, because everyone has a favorite producer (myself included) who we are betting on being the next WS.

I will say in advance that I will disqualify any opinions of Calera, I have not drank enough of them to have a firm opinion. Maybe the old school ones were really great, but no one else seems to be chasing them with lots of $$$$ either.

Bottom line is that I think we are all just kidding ourselves that what is going on is a period of high experimentation in California. Will we see what patches of dirt and techniques will win out? Who the hell knows

[Eric_S_n_y_d_e_r]

I think the distinction between softening and developing/evolving is an important one.
I think many of us can be fooled, myself included (have let many riper PN go past peak for my palate).

There’s plenty of PN that’s starts out tough and locked down, and opens up with a few years, peaks and declines.
Finding one that starts out one way and evolves into something else in a non-linear fashion is something different. Not making an argument one way or another, not enough experience (maybe ask me in 20 years )

[Blake_Brown]

@Subu Ramachandran

With regard to ABC, Jim Clendenen told me that his wines (other than the basic one) starts to be approachable at only around 8-10yrs…and they seem to age very well.

I hope Blake Brown can weighs in on older wines, he has tasted a lot of the 90s ABC PNs…

Just noticed this thread and can add some first hand knowledge:

• ABCs Pinots have fantastic staying power. I just opened a 95 Isabelle with Jim a few weeks ago and it was incredible and has the structure to go another decade at least with peak performance. I`ve had many older ABC Pinots from various bottle formats, mostly magnums and double mags, all drinking brilliantly.

• BTW, thats another point for this thread. Many producers made their wines in mags or larger formats and these are the way to go for longevity. Im buying more mags now for future benefit.

• As some of you know, I drink a lot of Williams Selyem Pinots made by and with Burt Williams. I still have some that are from the late 80s and early 90s and they are unbelievably good.

• I`d also agree with those who like the aged Arcadian wines. I did a retrospective dinner with Joe a few years ago and most showed remarkably good with a couple of exceptions which may have been more a bottle variation than anything else.

• Having bought Pisoni since inception, I can say Garys wines are holding up well. Id also add Mount Eden into this conversation.

[Blake_Brown]

I just checked on with a really good source, Rusty Gaffney of the Pinotfile newsletter and his list is:
Williams Selyem, Littorai, Hanzell, Mount Eden,Talisman, Rochioli, Calera, The Eyrie Vineyard, Cristom.

[Tom_Gutting]

Mount Eden, Littorai, and Hanzell are great additionals.

Eyrie Wines do age gorgeously.

Vintage does play a lot into this because it has such an impact on the natural acidity levels. Wines that have acid added back to it just doesn’t age the same. There was a lot of that in 2004, and those wines just fell apart at a shocking rate – although a clean bottle of Swan Estate or most of the 2004 Selyem SVD wines are pretty.

[Joe_Davis]

@Peter Simpson

@D@vid Bu3ker

Regarding Rhys, I don’t think we really know yet. I’ve had a couple of older bottles that turned a corner into something more interesting, but that’s about it. Everything else is pretty much youthful and unevolved. It’s also very bottling dependent. I have much higher hopes for Skyline and Alpine than the others. Horseshoe may also sneak in there.

I agree. 2009 was the first Rhys vintage I bought and so far they have not turned into anything special. I am often amused at the tasting notes that say “great stuff but needs another two years, 93 points”

I also think the jury is out on Arcadian. The 01’s became wonderful at around seven years but subsequent vintages haven’t come close to that level. They haven’t fallen apart but will they ever become great?

Calera used to age really well, but they caught Parkeritis after their '07s got those huge scores, and have not been the same since.

Peter,

I would suggest looking at 1999, 2002, 2005,2006, 2007 as vintages that continue to evolve on par with the 2001 vintage. 2000 was a large crop across the board but some lovely wines were created that were site specific such as Pisoni. 2004 was just a vintage that suffered from heat throughout most of August and into early September. 2008 wines and younger are too early to evaluate for the secondary and tertiary development.

[lucaslabelle]

Does anyone have experience with aged Peter Michael Pinot?

Would love to hear impressions and suggested drinking windows.

Thanks!