You read too much into my words.
I am not cynical about eating out, nor ordering wine out and never said I was.
I am not comfortable with “old wines”(old to me is 20+ years) being poured BTG. Lots of restaurants do not own wines for 20 years any longer, which means they are buying them and I would need to know where and how they were stored, unless there is a satisfactory policy regarding bad, or off wine replacement or refund in place.
As you know, older wines are not guaranteed by most businesses in this trade.
After 35 years in the fine and rare wine business, I have consumed many of hundreds of 20+ old wines( and much older wines) and have tasted many more. I know how critical provenance is. Based on that experience, I refuse to gamble on an auction bought wine, or a wine which sat on display in non cellar conditions in a retail store for BTG.
If we define “old” as 5-10 year old cellar worthy wines aged in the restaurant cellar, or recently re-released for distribution, no problem. If we are talking 20+ year old wines, I am more concerned and would need provenance info.
An unsatisfactory judgement call, or a lowered price for a lesser bottle is the crux of my concerns for old wines BTG, as a matter of principle.
Why is it such a huge gamble? You can probably get a sip of it before committing to buy. If not, and if the wine is as bad as you fear, you can probably return it and get something else. At the very worst, you’re out the cost of only one glass of wine rather than a whole bottle.
Since the definition of an older wine has not been standardized in this discussion and since my wine interests are for not just “old” wines, and tend to focus on higher end wines, a fact has also not been brought into play, for which i apologize, and the fact that I indicated I do not know the policies of vintage BTG programs as indicated by my post, I, without qualifying the specifics, stated I am skeptical of the concept.
I can imagine a difference of opinions could arise with a questionable wine, please my posts regarding policies and customs in place again.
You seemed to have missed the point about this being a matter of principal as well.
I am aware of too many people in the wine business passing off questionable bottles, but I recognize most do not. Some have been caught red handed, settled out of court and are still in the business, selling high end wines.
I have seen the same questionable wines show up in charity auctions, multiple times–perpetuated mostly by your fellow consumer donors–it happens more frequently than you think!
Just recently someone posted about buying a couple of lots in auction, less than a case each and all the bottles tried were corked/off. Since it was than a case each, it is difficult for me to not to think someone knew there was a problem? Caveat Emptor!
As you go back in time there are more frequent cork problems and less cleanly wine production faciities leading to wines with issues, the odds of a bad bottle are much greater.
So what are the typical sources for these “old” vintage wines? Put me more at ease with the concept, please
Apologies Richard, no offense meant.
I actually agree with most of what you say, although I’m not entirely sure I understand your last sentence.
And I also realize there are many avenues of discussion the OP could lead to, some of which probably deserve their own thread, but a few that can be addressed here without too much fear of thread drift.
For the record, “old” to me is a fairly nebulous term, and I’ve had to wildly adjust my parameters as I’ve been able to taste wines, that while “old” in terms of vintage, were still vibrant, fresh, and “young” on the palate.
I’ve also shifted my thoughts re: wine purchased at auction, and provenance in general.
Obviously it is of paramount importance that a wine be stored at optimum conditions from bottling to the cork being pulled.
But honestly- that can never be a guarantee, even when purchasing directly from the chateau/domaine/winery.
In fact, I have seen private cellars that are far superior to the storage conditions of the winery that actually made the wine;)
I’ve had library wines purchased directly from a chateau that were totally shot, and the same wine from a private cellar that was fantastically alive. Granted, that is an anomaly, but it happens.
I’ve had wines stored in closets for 50 years that were stunning. I’m sure we all have weird random tales like that, just as we all have stories of shot bottles that should’ve been perfect.
I guess what I’m saying is- it’s a crap shoot anyway you look at it.
If you want to figure the possibilities that a wine might be shot, certainly buying a 30yr old Sonoma chard off a list in a restaurant not known its wine program, let alone older vintages, then yes- probably not worth the risk, and you’d be wise to tread carefully.
However- if the somm/wine director came over, talked to you about it, clearly had a sense of history with older wines, and perhaps a detailed knowledge of the wine/vintage in question, accurately described the experience a sound bottle should give, I guess I’d be willing to take a flyer and go for a glass;)
I guess the macro discussion I’d love to see here is: what experience are we looking for when we drink a glass of wine? That, to me, is an endlessly fascinating question.
But in this case - when the bottle is already open, presumably under coravin - it´s easier to ask for a small amount for tasting … (and you can always ask about storage etc.)
It´s also a question: what is “older wines” in the US?
10 years may be “older” for a 10$ retail Zin bottle, but not for a 100+$ private reserve CS …
Earlier this year I visited BA wine bar in Lisbon. I enquired about older bottles BTG and was shown several examples of 20 year old red blends from the Dao and the Duoro. Was offered a sample of each and they were all good. We each had a glass of our favourites. I really appreciated the opportunity to taste examples of mature Portuguese red table wines. I highly recommend this spot if you’re ever in Lisbon. Providing samples is a great option and is something I just don’t see here in Canada.
David,
No offense taken, we are clarifying thoughts and positions and I am learning about your vintage BTG approach.
My last sentence references your comment about determining whether a bottle is acceptable. Lowering the pricing when a bottle is not quite right is the other reference. These are the gray areas of dealing with older wines.
I always told my clients there is no guarantee when buying older wines, it is for big boyz willing to take the chance. I was always uncomfortable because there was no sure way to know a wine’s actually condition until the cork is pulled(vs. today, tasted via Coravin–my oversight in this application, sorry).
However, I would protect them as buyers just prior to sale by personally inspecting a bottle, once again, for: fill, clarity and sediment, capsule corrosion, cork condition(very risky procedure as cork could fail during testing with slight pressure to determine if it is saturated and spongy, or hard–any movement could jeopardize the seal), color and the related striations indicating maturity–I highly recommend Broadbent’s Great Vintage Wine Book with the great photos of how various wines appear at different stages of maturity in a wine glass–a difficult learned incomplete skill to do so through different colored bottles-brown glass masks/shifts colors differently than green glass (I have seen French wines from the WW ll era in odd color bottles, such as aqua, due to glass shortages as well).
I would do all I could to determine a bottle was in good condition and I guess my frustrations and insecurity selling wine to repeat big $ customers, I did not want to lose, is still imbedded.
Obviously, Corvin changes the game completely and would eliminate my concerns if tiny pre-purchase samples are part of the process. Then my palate experience could determine the viability of a given vintage BTG wine, not someone else’s opinion, discussion over, I stand enlightened.
It’s probably not you;) I am completely challenged in the tech department, and no doubt didn’t link it correctly.
Unfortunately our social media skills aren’t quite what they should be.
Hey Richard-
I guess this speaks to the sort of “macro” question I raised upthread somewhere re: what experience does one look for when buying wine (especially older/rarer) BTG at a restaurant or wine bar?
When I mentioned we’ll occasionally adjust the price depending on bottle condition, I should probably clarify that, in no way are we foisting a flawed wine on a customer.
However, if the wine is sound, but past it’s peak and maybe on the downward slope, it can still provide a unique and (hopefully) enjoyable drinking experience.
When someone orders off the vintage board, there is a one glass commitment for us to open the bottle. As I mentioned, we’ll try to describe the wine and explain what they might get out of it as best we can, especially if they are unfamiliar with older wines.
If they’re still interested in trying it, we open the bottle*. We do a six ounce pour, so depending on the age/sediment level of the wine, we realistically have 3 or 3.5 glasses of wine to sell.
Now, let’s say we have a '69 BV Georges de Latour (which can occasionally be found at retail anywhere from $150- $300) on our board at $45/glass (which would bring us $180, or just about retail, providing we sold all 4 glasses), but for whatever reason (let’s just say bottle variation), this particular bottle isn’t showing as well as others we’ve sold. It’s not cooked or corked, just not as vibrant an example as we’ve experienced from other bottles of the same wine. At that point, it’s up to us to adjust the price. Maybe 1969 is a significant vintage for the buyer, so the experience of just tasting a nearly 50yr old wine trumps any expectations of deliciousness**. But because we’ve personally had better examples of the wine, we might adjust the price. They’re still getting to experience an older, rare glass of wine, but it might be more of a $35 experience than a $45, if that makes sense.
But again- we go to pretty great lengths to try to accurately gauge what their expectations are, and explain what they might experience with an older wine.
And sometimes we miss.
But I’d like to think more often than not, we don’t.
The bottom line is- I love old wine, and want more people to experience it.
*unfortunately, the Coravin doesn’t really work on wines over a certain age; if the cork is too saturated, or there is significant sediment, the initial blast of argon will stir it up, and occasionally even push the cork out. I truly WISH we could use it on the older bottles, but we haven’t been able to figure out just how yet. As a result, we end up occasionally doing ridiculous things like braising octopus in '64 Richebourg;)
**I cannot help but drink “in context”, and as a result have realized great enjoyment out of wines that might not be intrinsically “delicious”. I’m fully aware that I’m in the minority in that case, but I don’t necessarily need a wine to be delicious to fully enjoy it. It sure helps, but if I’m honest with myself, it’s probably a lessor part of the equation than context.
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