Burgundy ratings vs Bordeaux

[G_Shields]

Hi William,

I’d take the path of most resistance and tell them to go f*ck themselves!

Cheers
Jeremy

Awesome! Spoken like a true Aussie!

[Howard_Cooper]

I actually think this is an entirely valid, and indeed interesting, question. (As a region that attracts even more high scores than Bordeaux, I’d be tempted to add Napa to the equation). Certainly, comparing Bordeaux and Burgundy is like comparing chalk and cheese. But, I do think that both the proportion of high scores and how high those high scores are may be taken to give a sense of where a given publication situates a given region in a global context in terms of quality. It would require an argument of considerable sophistry to convince me that the best regions shouldn’t get, overall, the best scores.

This question was raised over on the Vinous forum a year or so back, so people might find it interesting to dig up that thread and read the discussion (Vinous | Explore All Things Wine). It is something we have also discussed quite a bit internally at TWA. Arguments in favor of the status quo have tended to emphasize the fact that Burgundy as a rule doesn’t deselect into second wines (though nor are its terroirs so heterogenous: it isn’t obvious to me which part of e.g. Musigny one would want to declassify, whereas clearly some parts of Mouton’s vineyard holdings are a lot better than others); the fact that Burgundy doesn’t blend grape varieties (though not blending varieties doesn’t seem to impede Pétrus from getting high scores) etc etc. I haven’t really found them compelling; and clearly, if you look at Burgundy prices, neither does the market.

If I were to speculate, I might venture that on the one hand, generalists who review Burgundy as well tend to come to Burgundy after cutting their teeth on Bordeaux or California; whereas specialists who review Burgundy have tended to be terroiristes who are heavily invested in the notion that a village wine can never be better than a premier cru and a premier cru rarely better than a grand cru. Both tend to limit scores. I’d add that it is also easier to score Burgundy candidly, in that producers sell their wines anyway, and don’t really care about the scores. Scores that the Bordelais would consider a fail rating, such as my 95+ for Lamy-Caillat’s 2017 Caillerets, also don’t seem to hold back wines in the market (indeed, I’d argue that Burgundy scores, being more credible, are actually taken more seriously). In Bordeaux, by contrast, one is put under immense pressure, and scores are a constant topic of conversation. I think I’ve related the story of the proprietor of the 96-point classified growth who began our meeting with “so you didn’t like my 2019?” shortly after the review was published. I’ve even received a lawyer’s letter about one bad Bordeaux review I gave. So the path of least resistance is very clearly to score higher.

If you ever wanted to stick it to the Bordeaux producer who sent you the lawyer letter, publish the letter and don’t review the producer’s wines again. But, you are nicer and more politic than I am.

I think that to some extent the issue on scores at least to some extent is the limits of the 100 point scoring system. First, at the very top, the wines of Burgundy separate themselves more than do the wines of Bordeaux or Napa. There probably isn’t that much difference between the various first growths and between them and a few other wines in Bordeaux in a top vintage, while there still is likely to be some separation between the very top Burgs and other wines.

But, more importantly, wines tend to be rated in terms of concentration and length and less on seductiveness. It really is hard to judge seductiveness when you are “tasting” 50 wines or more a day (or even 10-20 wines together at a winery). But, as a wine drinker, I will sometimes drink a “lesser” Burgundy and just want to sit with it all night. It is just perfect. But, it is a 2016 Hudelot-Noellat Bourgogne Rouge or a 2015 Domaine Dublère Chorey-les-Beaune La Maladerotte or a 2017 Jean-Claude Ramonet Chassagne-Montrachet Rouge or a 2017 Heitz Lochardet Pommard 1er Clos de Poitures (all actual examples from the last year or so) and it does not have concentration. It has seductiveness. It would not be as good at a bigger dinner with lots of wines. The seductiveness would be somewhat muted and lost unless you follow the bottle. And, I know from having gone through a range of Nudelot-Noellat wines or Blair’s wines a few times that their other wines are better when tasted side-by-side. But as one wine, with dinner for a few people, these wines are just about perfect. How do you score that? How do you score seductiveness (is it too subjective for scoring - professionals like to be more objective, whatever that means). I have given up scoring for this reason, but William and other professionals do not have that luxury.

[MChang]

It doesn’t make a difference anyways regarding burgundy.

Do you think the secondary market price for 2019 Arnoux-Lachaux RSV would be significantly affected by scores?

If William gave it a 80 do you think it’d suddenly be available on store shelves?

[Marcus_Goodfellow]

@walterturners

I notice that the critic ratings for top burgundies typically top out at 95-96 points yet there are plenty of 95-100 point bordeauxs. Are the point ratings comparable between the two regions? Is a 96 point DRC inferior to a 100 point Lafite?

That‘s not really the case. Look at the Wine Advocates 2019 ratings:

Burgundy: 6 x 100, 47 x 97 to 100
Bordeaux: 5 x 100, 29 x 97 to 100

The big difference is (and I think that‘s the reason people believe that Burgundy get lower scores), that you can actually buy the high scoring Bordeauxs whereas the high scoring Burgs are hardly available due to scarcity.

Another point: wine are always scored respective to their regional peers. So point/score comparisons between different regions are not a thing.

That’s well said.

I’m in Brady’s camp in not using scores at all(I have a group of retail people and WB that I look to to enlarge my knowledge and guide my buying choices), but I certainly did when I first got into wine. Scores do give people a place to start and I found them useful (IMO) with three considerations.

1. have an idea of the palate of the reviewer and their methodology. i.e. I align well with David Schildknecht, John Gilman, and Josh Raynolds, and less so with Jeb Dunneck or Alan Meadows. I consider all of these reviewers to be similarly talented.

2. I don’t compare scores on wines of different regions or grape varieties. A 90 point Sancerre isn’t something I feel I can compare to a 93 point Bordeaux or a 92 point Burgundy.

3. critics are usually, but not always, very familiar with the wines of the region they are reviewing. So a 95 point Burgundy or Barolo may have a great score but still not be overly enjoyable for a number of years.

Like anything, scores are more helpful the more knowledgeable we are about the different regions and grapes. Though I personally still find the small shop owners and employees to be my best resource. Independent wine shops usually are owned by wine geeks, and if you are serious about getting into wine they are typically happy to help you learn.

[Craig_G]

Maybe it’s me, but I feel like cheese really is better than chalk.

[William_Kelley]

It doesn’t make a difference anyways regarding burgundy.

Do you think the secondary market price for 2019 Arnoux-Lachaux RSV would be significantly affected by scores?

If William gave it a 80 do you think it’d suddenly be available on store shelves?

Given that I gave it 98 and described it as one of the wines of the vintage, I am not sure this example proves what you think it proves…

But I think it’s likely true that even if scores can inflame the market for a particular Burgundy producer, they can’t really break a producer, either. This is clearly not the case in Bordeaux.

[William_Kelley]

If you ever wanted to stick it to the Bordeaux producer who sent you the lawyer letter, publish the letter and don’t review the producer’s wines again. But, you are nicer and more politic than I am.

I’m wouldn’t say I’m nicer, and I think doing so would probably be a net positive for me, on balance; indeed, several friends in the industry have encouraged me to do just this. However, I would prefer to build my career in wine writing, such as it is, by the work that I do rather than by any attendant controversy, and the less controversy I can engender, the better!

[MChang]

It doesn’t make a difference anyways regarding burgundy.

Do you think the secondary market price for 2019 Arnoux-Lachaux RSV would be significantly affected by scores?

If William gave it a 80 do you think it’d suddenly be available on store shelves?

Given that I gave it 98 and described it as one of the wines of the vintage, I am not sure this example proves what you think it proves…

But I think it’s likely true that even if scores can inflame the market for a particular Burgundy producer, they can’t really break a producer, either. This is clearly not the case in Bordeaux.

I guess my point was that even if it had gotten a bad score it would have made no difference.

[Marcus_Goodfellow]

It doesn’t make a difference anyways regarding burgundy.

Do you think the secondary market price for 2019 Arnoux-Lachaux RSV would be significantly affected by scores?

If William gave it a 80 do you think it’d suddenly be available on store shelves?

Given that I gave it 98 and described it as one of the wines of the vintage, I am not sure this example proves what you think it proves…

But I think it’s likely true that even if scores can inflame the market for a particular Burgundy producer, they can’t really break a producer, either. This is clearly not the case in Bordeaux.

William, do you think that Burgundy may be more insulated than Bordeaux because they focus less on scores there? I mean that they do use scores but because they also heavily focus on the terroir of sites, scores would be less prominent for producers.

Whereas Bordeaux has less delineation of site, and seems to have aligned themselves more directly with critical review a few decades ago.



I also kind of feel that there’s a bit of leeway for Burgundy because Pinot Noir can be challenging to gauge just how much it will change and evolve over time.

[Howard_Cooper]

It doesn’t make a difference anyways regarding burgundy.

Do you think the secondary market price for 2019 Arnoux-Lachaux RSV would be significantly affected by scores?

If William gave it a 80 do you think it’d suddenly be available on store shelves?

Given that I gave it 98 and described it as one of the wines of the vintage, I am not sure this example proves what you think it proves…

But I think it’s likely true that even if scores can inflame the market for a particular Burgundy producer, they can’t really break a producer, either. This is clearly not the case in Bordeaux.

William, do you think that Burgundy may be more insulated than Bordeaux because they focus less on scores there? I mean that they do use scores but because they also heavily focus on the terroir of sites, scores would be less prominent for producers.

Whereas Bordeaux has less delineation of site, and seems to have aligned themselves more directly with critical review a few decades ago.



I also kind of feel that there’s a bit of leeway for Burgundy because Pinot Noir can be challenging to gauge just how much it will change and evolve over time.

Marcus,

Certainly not William, but for my two cents, I have certainly had the impression that once there became reliable critics rating Burgundy (e.g., Allen Meadows, John Gillman, William), the interest in Burgundy has gone soaring. Whether the score is 93 or 98, the words are positive and on the correct wines. Gives a lot more people the confidence to buy Burgundy. It used to be that many Burgundy producers who were really good could stay under the radar for decades. Now, we are lucky to get a couple of years before prices start going up. You may be correct that scores don’t matter as much, but something in the reviews do matter. And, my sense is that people are liking what they are drinking. Certainly, there is no let up in the demand for these wines. It does not appear that people are sorry they bought the wines and then go onto something else.

[Greg_K]

It doesn’t make a difference anyways regarding burgundy.

Do you think the secondary market price for 2019 Arnoux-Lachaux RSV would be significantly affected by scores?

If William gave it a 80 do you think it’d suddenly be available on store shelves?

Given that I gave it 98 and described it as one of the wines of the vintage, I am not sure this example proves what you think it proves…

But I think it’s likely true that even if scores can inflame the market for a particular Burgundy producer, they can’t really break a producer, either. This is clearly not the case in Bordeaux.

Doesn’t this also have a lot to do with the difference in quantity? I suspect Le Pin is somewhat insulated from scores too.

[Vince_T]

Maybe it’s me, but I feel like cheese really is better than chalk.

I dunno Craig, do you really prefer your Chablis to carry hints of Epoisses?

[Scott_Brunson]

Who killed the OP?

[Marcus_Goodfellow]

Given that I gave it 98 and described it as one of the wines of the vintage, I am not sure this example proves what you think it proves…

But I think it’s likely true that even if scores can inflame the market for a particular Burgundy producer, they can’t really break a producer, either. This is clearly not the case in Bordeaux.

William, do you think that Burgundy may be more insulated than Bordeaux because they focus less on scores there? I mean that they do use scores but because they also heavily focus on the terroir of sites, scores would be less prominent for producers.

Whereas Bordeaux has less delineation of site, and seems to have aligned themselves more directly with critical review a few decades ago.



I also kind of feel that there’s a bit of leeway for Burgundy because Pinot Noir can be challenging to gauge just how much it will change and evolve over time.

Marcus,

Certainly not William, but for my two cents, I have certainly had the impression that once there became reliable critics rating Burgundy (e.g., Allen Meadows, John Gillman, William), the interest in Burgundy has gone soaring. Whether the score is 93 or 98, the words are positive and on the correct wines. Gives a lot more people the confidence to buy Burgundy. It used to be that many Burgundy producers who were really good could stay under the radar for decades. Now, we are lucky to get a couple of years before prices start going up. You may be correct that scores don’t matter as much, but something in the reviews do matter. And, my sense is that people are liking what they are drinking. Certainly, there is no let up in the demand for these wines. It does not appear that people are sorry they bought the wines and then go onto something else.

That does make sense.

And I agree that people are liking what they are drinking.

[Howard_Cooper]

What is interesting is that unlike most people on this board, today I find buying Bordeaux more of a minefield than buying Burgundy. I have a good sense of Burgundy producers I like. While some continually go off my list because of price, I taste enough different producers with friends that I don’t make too many mistakes for my palate.

By contrast, I don’t keep up with Bordeaux enough and too many producers go over to the dark side (literally). Threads like this one Domaine de Chevalier 2000 and 2005 - WINE TALK - WineBerserkers by people whose palates I respect make me scared to ever buy another bottle of Bordeaux. Never has a region been so in need of William revising scoring and awarding points as Bordeaux.

I think what a lot comes down to is that most of us learn most about the types of wines we really love and, for ourselves, are much better in picking out wines from those regions than we are at buying wines from other regions. I know I go crazy for certain Burgundies that most people would say are just ok (although there are some people here that like a lot of the same wines as I do (see, e.g., TNs: rdj, heitz-lochardet, Clos des papes - WINE TALK - WineBerserkers)) but it does not matter. I like what I like and tend to know what I like.

For good or bad, at my age I am not buying as much red wine for aging as I used to do and fortunately have a cellar full of wine.