Burgundy question re declassification

[John_Morris]

A great thread, guys … and Maureen. My geek hat is off to you all.

[V_Viinikka]

So, it seems that there are real exceptions to the law, at least in practice. The example about including Bonnes Mares to Gruenchers raises the question, how common are these kinds of strechings of the rules. Those two vineyards aren’t even immediate neighbours (though they are certainly close to each other).

Another thing I was thinking is what happens with those Grand Crus that cover ground in more than one village (Bonnes Mares, Corton, Montrachet and Batard-Montrachet). Certainly not all BM becomes Gruenchers. Is it parcel by parcel or is there some other principle here?

This isn’t perhaps the most important question in the world, but I can’t think of a better place to ask it.

Cheers,
Ville

[Matt_Neel]

@V. Viinikka

So, it seems that there are real exceptions to the law, at least in practice.

Exactly – not “quite logical,” right? Cheers and happy New Year all!

[Gerhard_P]

@Gerhard P.

There is a 3rd example - but I really cannot remember which one at the moment - sorry!

Well,
Larmarche owns a parcel of Gaudichots (before 1991 a 1er Cru) adjoining La Grande Rue - and (as far as I m concerned) he always blended it into (then 1er Cru) La Grande Rue!
In 1992 both - La Grande Rue and the Lamarche-Gaudichot-piece - have been elevated to Grand Cru … and now it´s official … but before ???

[JonoBeagle]

Looking at the map of Vosne, whether it is legal or not on paper, one can understand why Lamarche would blend his Gaudichots into GR, Dujac his into Malconsorts and you can see that DRC is separate. It does beg the question of which bits of Gaudichots etc are owned by DRC.

I know that historically, Lamarche gave DRC most if not all of their Gaudichots in return for DRCs plots in La Grande Rue. I can’t remember when, but there are plenty of examples of this, which may give a clue as to why certain plots are blended to different cuvées.

Perhaps there are unwritten deals. So DRC can claim a monopole, anyone else, has to blend into their nearest vineyard of similar soil quality?? Who knows, but it is a fascinating topic.

\

I am here: Google Maps

[Gerhard_P]

@JonoBeagle

It does beg the question of which bits of Gaudichots etc are owned by DRC.

DRC exchanged their small spots of La Grande Rue (0.0469 ha) close to Lamarches LGR with Lamarche against some of their small spots of Gaudichots ou La Tache (totalling 0.0186 ha) + 2 parcels of Echezeaux 0.0283 in 1959.

DRC still holds 0.08 ha of Gaudichots. This plot is either in the small strip between La Tache and Malconsorts, or in the triangle piece north of “Au Dessus de Malconsorts”. (I think the latter)

@JonoBeagle

I know that historically, Lamarche gave DRC most if not all of their Gaudichots in return for DRCs plots in La Grande Rue.

No, not all, because Lamarche still owns 0.25 ha Gaudichots that are now part of La Grand Rue and Grand Cru.

[Peter_Chiu]

@Matt Neel

@V. Viinikka

So, it seems that there are real exceptions to the law, at least in practice.

Exactly – not “quite logical,” right? Cheers and happy New Year all!

If the law here is the law of AC, then there are exceptions to the law for the reason as follow :

AC was created in the mid-1930s for many purposes; and one of them is confirm what tranditional aspect of many thing already existed in Burgundy before the 1930s.

Here is an example : for instance the La Moutonne ( a moopole of Long-Dpaquit ) whose 2.6 ha straddke Preuses and Vauesir, is allowed to be labelled with its name and has a G-cru status.

[Peter_Chiu]

Another thing I was thinking is what happens with those Grand Crus that cover ground in more than one village (Bonnes Mares, Corton, Montrachet and Batard-Montrachet). Certainly not all BM becomes Gruenchers. > > Is it parcel by parcel or is there some other principle here?

You are right - it is parcel by parcel.

OK…Each G-cru has its own right which means that each of them has their own AC laws. That being said…each parcel of land is registered in the local ( = village ) Town Hall.

In other words…Corton hill has 3 village Town Halls for registration each parcel of land contained in this AC. If the parcel ( of land ) was registered with P-Verg. Town Hall then the de- classified should be 1er cru of P-Verg.

Another example…for sub-climat Combe D’Orveau has parcel of land in G-cru; 1er cru and village. The g-cru portion ( o.77 ha ) is wholly own by Prieur and the wine there is lebelled as Musigny. If Prieur would like to declassifed all its juice, then Prieur has the legal-right to label the bottle as Chambolle-Musigny 1er cru Combe D’Orveau ( despite the fact that the port of sub-climat Combe D’Orveau has 1er level classification is only : 2.38 ha ).

[Peter_Chiu]

Some vineyards have a slither that is part of Grand Crus. So for example, Montluisants has a part that can be called Clos de la Roche. As such if you blended plots from either side of the divide, as they are both from the same vineyard, could you not thus call it 1er Cru Montluisants??

Yes - right on.

Monts-Luisants is more complicated as part of this climat is entitled to have white and red wines due to historical facts which were pre-AC laws.

[Peter_Chiu]

For example Clos de Bezes can be labelled Chambertin, but not vice-versa, correct?.

Yes - this is correct.



.[/quote] Mazoyeres can be Charmes, but not vice-versa.[/quote]

No - this is not correct.

There is a discussion here re above not too long ago. Here is the link : Mazoyeres or Charmes-Chambertin - interchangeable? - WINE TALK - WineBerserkers

[Ian_Dorin]

@JonoBeagle

What Claude says, but each village is slightly different depending on what Appelations are available to them. So a Corton Blanc could be declassified to a 1er Cru or village, but not in Chambolle etc.

Blends of grand crus, I believe can be 1er Cru, blends of 1er have to be village as legally 1er Cru are village + rather than being a separate level.

You can choose to drop to various levels that are legally excepted, so De Vogue Chambolle is their even younger Musigny vines than the 1er Cru, but I can’t remember if they blend other vines into the village as well.

Interesting you pick Corton, as Corton is one of the most interesting zones where you can blend almost as much as you want, so long as it’s all Grand Cru vineyards, and still be Grand Cru.

[Stuart_BeauneHead_Niemtzow]

And, very confusing , as a result, Ian. Especially with the vineyard “Le Corton” stuck in the mix.

Is there another “zone” that grand crus can even be blended and still be grand cru? And, if so, what are such a blend allowed to be labeled? I can’t think of any.

[JonoBeagle]

Bonnes Mares straddles two villages!

There is a tiny slither in Morey! If blended and then declassified I have no idea what it could be called other than Bourgogne Rouge as it is two separate villages. But if not declassified it is all Bones-Mares.

[V_Viinikka]

@Stuart BeauneHead Niemtzow

Is there another “zone” that grand crus can even be blended and still be grand cru? And, if so, what are such a blend allowed to be labeled? I can’t think of any.

Isn’t Corton in principle a single Grand Cru just with many lieu-dits? Other examples of some kind of blending would include at least those already discussed in this thread, namely Chambertin+Beze, Charmes+Mazoyeres and even La Tache+Gaudichots. It seems, however, that all of these examples are cases of their own and the logic behind each one is somewhat peculiar.

[Mike_During]

@Stuart BeauneHead Niemtzow

And, very confusing , as a result, Ian. Especially with the vineyard “Le Corton” stuck in the mix.

Is there another “zone” that grand crus can even be blended and still be grand cru? And, if so, what are such a blend allowed to be labeled? I can’t think of any.

I guess you could blend the Chablis GC vineyards and call it just GC Chablis, with no vineyard name. Anyone know if this has been done? Cheers Mike

[Matt_Neel]

Brothers and sisters, let’s keep in mind the distinction between DEclassification and REclassification, a conceptual distinction I came across late. It matters, though.

[Gerhard_P]

@JonoBeagle

Bonnes Mares straddles two villages!

There is a tiny slither in Morey! If blended and then declassified I have no idea what it could be called other than Bourgogne Rouge as it is two separate villages. But if not declassified it is all Bones-Mares.

BTW the same applies to MONTRACHET - which can be in Puligny- and Chassagne- …

[Peter_Chiu]

@V. Viinikka

@Stuart BeauneHead Niemtzow

Is there another “zone” that grand crus can even be blended and still be grand cru? And, if so, what are such a blend allowed to be labeled? I can’t think of any.

Isn’t Corton in principle a single Grand Cru just with many lieu-dits? Other examples of some kind of blending would include at least those already discussed in this thread, namely Chambertin+Beze, Charmes+Mazoyeres and even La Tache+Gaudichots. It seems, however, that all of these examples are cases of their own and the logic behind each one is somewhat peculiar.

Right on -

[Peter_Chiu]

@Mike During

@Stuart BeauneHead Niemtzow

And, very confusing , as a result, Ian. Especially with the vineyard “Le Corton” stuck in the mix.

Is there another “zone” that grand crus can even be blended and still be grand cru? And, if so, what are such a blend allowed to be labeled? I can’t think of any.

I guess you could blend the Chablis GC vineyards and call it just GC Chablis, with no vineyard name. Anyone know if this has been done? Cheers Mike

Mike…so far I could not think of any house. Perhaps beccause all the climats there are quite big in size…and also perhaps because of commercial reasons ?

[Gerhard_P]

@Peter Chiu

@V. Viinikka

Isn’t Corton in principle a single Grand Cru just with many lieu-dits? Other examples of some kind of blending would include at least those already discussed in this thread, namely Chambertin+Beze, Charmes+Mazoyeres and even La Tache+Gaudichots. It seems, however, that all of these examples are cases of their own and the logic behind each one is somewhat peculiar.

Right on -

It isn´t always THAT easy!

Corton: let´s say a proprietor owns 3 parcels in different climats: Clos du Roi, Bressandes and Renardes . He is perfectly entitled to blend them into a Corton GC (without any vineyard designation). If he decides to declassify the whole harvest, it can be labelled as Aloxe-Corton 1er Cru (because all 3 climats are in Aloxe-C).
But what if he owns a 4th parcel in Le Rognet (which is in Ladoix-Serrigny)? Can it still be declassified into Aloxe-Corton 1er Cru? Ladoix-S. 1er Cru?
I don´t know.
Maybe it has to become Cote-de-Beaune-Villages?

With Chambertin+Clos de Beze and Charmes+Mazoyeres-Ch. it´s easy, all can become Gevrey-Chambertin 1er Cru.

With Bonnes-Mares and two parcels, one on the Morey-side, the other on the Chambolle-side I´m again not sure …

The same with Montrachet and Puligny- versus Chassagne …

La Tâche and Gaudichots: let´s say DRC decides to declassify La Tache in a weak vintage. Of course they can label it Vosne-Romanee 1er Cru (Cuvee Duvault-Blochet, which is a brand name).
I´m also sure they can declassify the wine from the “Gaudichots ou La Tache”-parcel into a Vosne-Romanee “Les Gaudichots” 1er Cru (even blend it with their tiny Gaudichots 1er-Cru-parcel)… but is it legal to include also the harvest from La Tache proper (which was and is never part of Gaudicots)? Or has it to be V-R 1er Cru without any vineyard?