Burgundy: how do the biggies (Faively, Jadot, Drouhin etc) compare to the little guys?

[Tom_Blach]

@Keith Levenberg

Interesting that nobody seems to be able to agree on which of the big producers are the good ones and which are the sucky ones. To me, the only terroir Bouchard’s wines show these days is the terroir of whatever forest the barrels come from.

Regrettably the fellow responsible has gone to do the same thing at Faiveley.

[C_h_r_i_s_B_e_r_n_s_e_n]

@Lewis Dawson

@Anthony Hall

Chris, I’m curious where your targets of “Vougeot, Echezeaux, and Chambertin” originated? And do you mean Clos Vougeot spcifically, or Vougeot more broadly?

Thanks, and good question. I bought these GCs (Clos Vougeot, Echezaux and the various…-Chambertin) in 2005 and thought of having a kind of vineyard vertical. Knowing what I know now about the GCs, I probably would not place the first two on my short list, so maybe I should explore Bonnes Mares, Clos St. Jacques etc a bit more. I did buy much more widely at the PC level, so that should suit me well.

[Mike_During]

@Tom Blach

@Keith Levenberg

Interesting that nobody seems to be able to agree on which of the big producers are the good ones and which are the sucky ones. To me, the only terroir Bouchard’s wines show these days is the terroir of whatever forest the barrels come from.

Regrettably the fellow responsible has gone to do the same thing at Faiveley.

I think Keith has a point with Bouchard but Faiveley has much less of a signature now, 2006>, than it had from the mid 90’s to 05.

[Nick_Ryan]

@Stuart BeauneHead Niemtzow

In every one of the “biggies” the distance between ownership and the grunt work is just too large for me. That’s the real issue, I think. Owners/managers who wear suits and ties all the time remind me too much of Bordeaux. I like to see owners with red stains on their hands and calloused handshakes. That connection is irresistible to me…the other is easy for me to resist.

I still find this a fairy-tail, idealized version of how things work. There are plenty of small domaines where the owner has to get their hands dirty because they aren’t making enough money for him/her to afford not to do that. But with prices as they are there are plenty where the owner can now easily spend his time racing Ferraris while hiring others to do the work. Or a boutique domaine owned by a millionaire who has hired help do everything (i.e. Napa). Is this any less authentic than, say, the wines make by a skilled, up-and-coming winemaker at a Jadot or a Faiveley who is in the fields or the labs 24/7? For purposes of economic diversity both large and small should be encouraged, but this sort of mythification is naive.

[Anthony_Hall]

@Stuart BeauneHead Niemtzow

@Anthony Hall

Dear Chris,

In general I find the negociants, even when they produce domain wines (i.e. own the vineyard) have a less interesting product than domains whose proudest expression is in their grand cru holdings. So little guy’s win for me,

Anthony.

I reached this same conclusion many many years ago-- early in my “career” with Burgundy. I seize on the word Anthony uses “interesting”. Part of the interest of Burgundy, to me, is the widely available connection between the vigneron and the vineyard and the product. Knowing the history (and evolution) of a particular family’s plot, its peculiarities and those who work it, and what they are trying to achieve with it…and how…add inestimably to the “interest” of any given wine for me.

Eloquently put. The jigsaw puzzle that is burgundy has more pieces for my snobbish brain to assemble with domains as compared to negociants. ps - the little guy could be producing inexpensive wine for centuries on undistinguished terror and still be interesting. On the other hand “little guy” negociants with a passion can also be interesting.

[Tom_Reddick]

@Tom Blach

@Keith Levenberg

Interesting that nobody seems to be able to agree on which of the big producers are the good ones and which are the sucky ones. To me, the only terroir Bouchard’s wines show these days is the terroir of whatever forest the barrels come from.

Regrettably the fellow responsible has gone to do the same thing at Faiveley.

Every time I hear someone talk about how much better Faiveley is today and think back on TNs for older wines of theirs that were cellared to maturity- I get a cold chill. It is like no lessons have been learned from the time when the WA seemed to think they were going to uproot and change the entire region.

[Kent_Comley]

Agreed Tom,
Some of the greatest wines that I have ever tasted have been Faiveleys from the 40s to the 90s.

[Mike_During]

@Kent Comley

Agreed Tom,
Some of the greatest wines that I have ever tasted have been Faiveleys from the 40s to the 90s.

I don’t think that is the era that is in question, mid 90’s (95) to 05 is. I think most critics are in agreement that the regime change in 06 was for the better, certainly seems so from release notes. What were the great wines from the 95-05 period?

[Kent_Comley]

When I say 90s i think teh last outstanding one i had was 90 Mazis.

The 99s are pretty good, anyway the ones that i have tried, especially 99 Fuees. But then again, difficult to make a bad one in 99!

[Mike_During]

Hi Kent,
I have also had some great 90’s and 91’s, it is from 95 that certain wines I think have been overly extracted and worked. Sure some are fine, but others a lottery, IMO much more consistent now. Krgds Mike

[Jeremy_Holmes]

Paul and Anthony,
Where do Faiveley sit (in your collective humble opinions) as a large producer with a tiny holding of Musigny vs. the smaller producers with larger holdings?
Cheers
Jeremy

[paul_hanna]

@Jeremy Holmes

Paul and Anthony,
Where do Faiveley sit (in your collective humble opinions) as a large producer with a tiny holding of Musigny vs. the smaller producers with larger holdings?
Cheers
Jeremy

Hi Jeremy,

You know that if I have to answer that, I will be forced to shoot you…


I don’t really have a problem with Faiveley as such as a larger producer (although I haven’t always been a big fan of some of their wines/styles through the '90’s). Certainly they have a soft spot for me now anyway…

Perhaps my issue is more so with Jadot (or even Bouchard), where I (like many others seem to also) tend to find the wines somewhat generic looking…

I’m not knocking the quality of Bouchard here as much as I am saying that they aren’t really a style that excites me to drink or buy anymore because of this.


Case in point:

I remember doing the lineup of Bouchard '07 GC Whites blind (6 wines including Batard, which I hadn’t seen before and a ring in 1’er) with the importer (and nearly the whole table all high end Burg importers/retails and serious Burg guys), and no one got any of the wines right…

The wines were fine, but really were just quite boring, and I honestly couldn’t tell the Montrachet from the Corton Charlemagne (other point here - buy the C/C out of the GC Bouchards), or which wine was better in the rather narrow range they all seemed to fall into (the Batard looked best on the night, followed by the C/C).

[Tom_Blach]

The Faiveley wines from the 90s simply reflect their vintages. Wines from 92,94 and 97 are great now, 91,93 and 98 almost there, and 95,96 and 99 pretty damned difficult still.

[Tom_Blach]

@Tom Reddick

@Tom Blach

@Keith Levenberg

Interesting that nobody seems to be able to agree on which of the big producers are the good ones and which are the sucky ones. To me, the only terroir Bouchard’s wines show these days is the terroir of whatever forest the barrels come from.

Regrettably the fellow responsible has gone to do the same thing at Faiveley.

Every time I hear someone talk about how much better Faiveley is today and think back on TNs for older wines of theirs that were cellared to maturity- I get a cold chill. It is like no lessons have been learned from the time when the WA seemed to think they were going to uproot and change the entire region.

Absolutely.

[Anthony_Hall]

@Jeremy Holmes

Paul and Anthony,
Where do Faiveley sit (in your collective humble opinions) as a large producer with a tiny holding of Musigny vs. the smaller producers with larger holdings?
Cheers
Jeremy

Sneaky question and a new permutation - big producer with tiny holding = interesting.

[Keith_Levenberg]

@Tom Blach

@Tom Reddick

@Tom Blach

Regrettably the fellow responsible has gone to do the same thing at Faiveley.

Every time I hear someone talk about how much better Faiveley is today and think back on TNs for older wines of theirs that were cellared to maturity- I get a cold chill. It is like no lessons have been learned from the time when the WA seemed to think they were going to uproot and change the entire region.

Absolutely.

And now I’m reading that the supposed down period for Faiveley is understood to have gone through the 2005 vintage? Was anybody saying this at the time? I remember the 2005 Faiveleys getting great reviews and being chased by tons of people. You always hear claims about estates “rejuvenating” without any prior claim that there was any need of rejuvenation. Per the current Wine Spectator, I see the same thing is occurring with Ch. Pichon-Lalande. So disappointing.

[Jay_Miller]

Personally I’ve been a fan of Drouhin’s wines for many years and have never thought that their style obscured variations in terroir. I’ve thought some (mostly but not entirely the domaine wines) bottlings are better than others but would never describe them as uninteresting.

Of course the combination of much higher prices and maxed out storage means my buying has been way down recently.

From Jadot I find the producer signature more marked but I still like many of the wines. I tend to have a smaller set of vineyards there that I’m really enamored of but I do love those.

[dbailey]

@Tom Blach

@Keith Levenberg

Interesting that nobody seems to be able to agree on which of the big producers are the good ones and which are the sucky ones. To me, the only terroir Bouchard’s wines show these days is the terroir of whatever forest the barrels come from.

Regrettably the fellow responsible has gone to do the same thing at Faiveley.

Tom,

I’d heard that Faiveley had dropped a couple of barrel suppliers since Hervet joined but hadn’t heard that they had changed or markedly increased the amount of new oak treatment the wines were getting?

Dan

[Mike_During]

@Keith Levenberg

And now I’m reading that the supposed down period for Faiveley is understood to have gone through the 2005 vintage? Was anybody saying this at the time? I remember the 2005 Faiveleys getting great reviews and being chased by tons of people. You always hear claims about estates “rejuvenating” without any prior claim that there was any need of rejuvenation. Per the current Wine Spectator, I see the same thing is occurring with Ch. Pichon-Lalande. So disappointing.

2005 was a great vintage, who didn’t make great wine? I actually bought some 05 Cazetiers a couple of weeks ago, Burghound I think rated it the best, including from those vintages made since. Still doesn’t change the fact that they were not on top of their game and change was underway, I certainly didn’t buy any 96 to 04, ones I had off restaurant lists were disappointing, 99 Cazetiers memorably so. Critics review never inspired me to buy them, not like now, but what would they know? Who cares about Bordeaux?

[Lewis_Dawson]

I certainly didn’t hear of any changes at Faiveley at the time 2005’s were released to the market. Same ol’ Faiveley, and I avoided them. Since the 2006 vintage is when I’ve heard of changes, but not really sure how much or exactly what is different. I’ve heard conflicting reports about that, but I have to believe the changes are for the better vis-a-vis my palate.