I’m thinking of buying some 2010s and am wondering what people think of the big vs. small producers, especially for Vougeot, Echezeaux, and Chambertin.
Thanks.
Okay, on a slightly more serious note - Clos de Vougeot depends a lot, but big producers typically compete with the smaller, near-the-tour producers. Most buyers discount CdV. Top negociants will compete for top honors with the best small growers.
Echezeaux is, pun-intended, all over the map. Big names do better here, but one can occasionally stumble across an unknown good buy,
Faiveley and Jadot make great Clos de Beze that need a lot of time to show. Not a big fan of CdV, but Echezeaux is very good and taut from Faiveley, Jadot is a taste before buy proposition in Ech.
In general I find the negociants, even when they produce domain wines (i.e. own the vineyard) have a less interesting product than domains whose proudest expression is in their grand cru holdings. So little guy’s win for me,
I agree with Anthony if we are talking about the best of the small growers, and if the higher cost of these top growers is not a deterent. There are many small growers who are less good than the domaine wines of the large merchants, IMO.
With the negociants, I stick to their domaine wines, as they generally tend to be better than their negociant offerings IMO. Louis Jadot is the best of the large firms for me, with a very broad range of domaine wines that are among the best of their respective appellations, made in a long-lived style that rewards substantial cellaring. I’ve also had some great wines from Bouchard Pere & Fils, and regard them as “second best large negociant.” I have not quite decided what I think about Joseph Drouhin, maybe close to or equal to Bouchard for me, but there are many who love their wines. And I have not tasted recent Faiveley vintages since their house style reportedly had a make-over, but not a fan of their older style.
Chris, I’m curious where your targets of “Vougeot, Echezeaux, and Chambertin” originated? And do you mean Clos Vougeot spcifically, or Vougeot more broadly?
Although this can sound a little snobbish/opinionated, I reached this same conclusion many many years ago-- early in my “career” with Burgundy. I seize on the word Anthony uses “interesting”. Part of the interest of Burgundy, to me, is the widely available connection between the vigneron and the vineyard and the product. Knowing the history (and evolution) of a particular family’s plot, its peculiarities and those who work it, and what they are trying to achieve with it…and how…add inestimably to the “interest” of any given wine for me. The large negociants, whether with domaine-owned parcels or purchased wines, almost always lose that element, which is as important as any in the mix of what I seek in Burgundy.
Does this impact the quality of what’s in the bottle? Not sure. Does it impact the the education/interest/intellectual gratification of knowing the variables that go into a particular bottling…it sure does for me. Can Gallo or Mondavi make good wines? I’d guess so…but…are they less interesting as a complete package as a result of the scale/corporate character/lack of artisanal authorship? For sure…at least to me. And, as a result, I haven’t bought any of the negociants’ products in years. Though the signature of an artisanal estate (like Coche or Jayer) might be strong, the signature of a negociant is guaranteed to be strong…of necessity…and that includes smaller ones, too…not just the bigger one. Leroy falls smack into that…though the prices remove the value from the larger scale…at least for me.
The “biggies” are, of course, more widely and more easily available, especially here in the US. They are brands. Their marketing and event-availability are very seductive. But, I don’t ever look to them for what I really seek in Burgundy: gratification on multi-levels, including intellectual.
To answer the OP a bit more…(but not for '10, yet):
I’d quite like the recent expressins of Faiveley’s Echezeaux, and in fact bought some myself, as I have done from '07 on.
The other Echezeaux’s I buy that I feel is at the top of the pile is DRC (duh), Rouget, Dujac and Mugenret-Gibourg, and also in the last few vintages Eugenie.
CV’s I buy are more limited, but I have really enjoyed the Eugenie’s again, they are expensive but pretty smart. The other wine that has impressed me is the few Chateau De La Tour’s I have had, and can’t wait to see the '09 VV. Others I rate include Leroy, Hudelot-Noellat and Mugneret-Gibourg, but again they are going to be more on the expensive side.
Chambertins I rate would obviously include the big two from Rousseau, Trapet is great value for money, I also like Faiveley’s Mazi and Latricieres, Ponsot’s Griotte, Leroys Latricieres is great, and I usually buy Roty TVV and Dujacs Charmes…Have also some got Boillot’s Chambertin and Beze from '08 and '09 (with '10’s to come) that I am keen to try, but haven’t yet…
Sorry, but no other real recent tastings of note on the Drouhins or the Jadot’s in question…
I buy wines from both big and small producers. I love Jadot and Faiveley and also like Drouhin a good bit. Jadot’s 2010 Echezeaux is outstanding, but their 2010 Clos St. Jacques is better.
Stuart, well stated, as Paul said. But I am curious what you mean by this…
Do you mean the “signature” is the knowledge that the wine is from a larger firm, this affecting your intellectual experience, or do you mean something that might be discerned in a blind tasting? If the latter, I don’t think I agree.
There is an obvious appeal to supporting small producers. But when you actually visit the big producers, you can see the difference between the ones that are factory operations making focus-groupped wines, and the ones that are just as dedicated to their vineyards and to quality wine production as the smaller guys.
And the same thing holds in Champagne with growers vs. the big houses. There is great wine made by dedicated winemakers from babied vines on both sides of the “fence”. There is reason, both moral and otherwise, to support both categories, and it’s not a burden to do so because great wines come from both. (And sorry Stuart but I do think it’s unabashed snobbery to write off the big guys completely.)
To a certain extent, but Jadot and Drouhin are not making one big mega-blend called “Bourgogne” supplemented with a “luxury Bourgogne” in a fancier bottle.
Just that I think that, from my experiences with visiting the bigger negoces, that one would find a tremendous “corporate” style unifying almost all of their examples, more than differences among comparable vineyards’ wines. At least that’s the impression I got tasting extensively at Jadot on my last trip…and at others on earlier trips.
Blind tasting? No…I don’t think I’d pick out the Jadot, Faievely (well maybe from a certain era), etc. examples of vineyards from others from that vineyard…blind…though… I am not a big believer in discerning much in a “blind tasting”…until after the identity of the wines are revealed. As I’ve gotten older and more experienced…I don’t expect much from truly blind tastings…and I don’t think all that much can be learned from them. Too many distractions trying not to look bad, among other things.
I don’t agree Stuart, perhaps for Jadot yes, but others like Faiveley now, Drouhin, Bouchard, the wines show terroir equal, if not more, to most small producers. They have more reason to work towards this, having a much larger offering the incentive to differentiate from vineyard to vineyard is greater. Vougeraie is a good example where the differences are obvious. I would think Fourrier for example has a much greater similarity in style than most of the big houses.
Interesting that nobody seems to be able to agree on which of the big producers are the good ones and which are the sucky ones. To me, the only terroir Bouchard’s wines show these days is the terroir of whatever forest the barrels come from.
I bet if we left out a few of the 'in" small producers, we also could not get agreement on what small producers are the good ones and which are the sucky ones.
Burgundy is very individualistic as to style and some people like one style and others another style. There are some big named producers where I don’t really like the wines all that much.
That’s the key point I think. What moves people in wine tends to be very personal and what works for one person may not work for someone else, independent of “quality.” That’s true for big and small producers alike.
I think, Nick, you don’t understand my point. I don’t “write” them “off” . I just focus elsewhere. I do that to hundreds of smaller estates, too. I’ve always enjoyed knowing a lot about a little, ie, focusing and drilling down. I’ve bought a group of wineries’ wines in vintages extending to many over 20 years vertically. Though I choose to focus, with regard the negoces, they lack an element that I want in almost anything on any subject I focus on: an extra element of intellectual interest from their individuality.
I am enamored of the artisanal and smaller scale on almost everything. I love Maine for that reason. I hate housing developments, chain restaurants, etc. because of the scale and sameness and “reliability”, which, to me, is the opposite of intrigue. I recognize that Dominoes probably makes good pizza, but their product isn’t interesting, because it lacks the element of the individual. Ditto for other things like Subway and other corporate operations. They are brands and everything is subordinate to the “brand”. That’s a plus for some, but not for me. Whenever I go to a town, I look for what I can find that is different and a product of human passion…as that can be palpable…and is what translates into my passion.
You can call it snobbery. It’s not. It’s just a realization of the limitations, intellectually and risk wise, that such operations, by their nature, which exist mainly to make money, avoid. Can they make good wine/pizza/ subs/burgers? Sure. Can they make exciting/truly stimulating examples that add a dimension making them worth experiencing? Not to me, really.
But, don’t confuse that lack of extra value/dimension to me with snobbery. I don’t look down on them or proselytize against them. I just focus elsewhere to get what I find essential to the experience.
“Unabashed snobbery”? I’m not even sure what that might be. I don’t even look down on the people who go for the corporate…I just don’t get much gratification, myself, and therefore, look elsewhere for gratification. Why waste my time; there’s so much that does gratify me. I don’t even think about the stuff that doesn’t.
In every one of the “biggies” the distance between ownership and the grunt work is just too large for me. That’s the real issue, I think. Owners/managers who wear suits and ties all the time remind me too much of Bordeaux. I like to see owners with red stains on their hands and calloused handshakes. That connection is irresistible to me…the other is easy for me to resist.