Burgundy collectors...how much do you buy in a good or great vintage?

[EricG]

Super helpful perspectives. Sounds like few regrets about over-buying, but easy to not buy enough. Enablers, all of you! Then again, I don’t need any help.

My biggest takeaway so far is that I need to back fill more, especially the 90s where I have just a few 99s and 93s.

@Berry - I have not been a big fan of the 09s since release as well. Bought a few, but mostly limited to wines that seemed to handle the ripeness well.

Given a choice between 08 and 09 of the same wine, I’m a buyer of '08 almost every time. Although I do agree with others that some of the low end wines can be thin or even a bit shrill.

[k_s_h_i_n]

@A Songeur

As always, it is difficult to draw definitive conclusions at such an early stage.
Yes 2009 young can be offputting because of the invading blast of fruit and I have had some who “are not my style” …for now (I also had reat bottles). What seems a weakness may turn out to be rewarded in the longer term. This only requires patience as the elements seem to be here. I also think the quality is more widespread than 2008 and 2010 where quality can be very high with great producers and great terroir but less attractive/consistent otherwise

2008 is a difficult proposition: I went across very acidic bottles on one end, but through great pure, crystaline delicious bottles. Irregular but some delicious young wines. I tend to think it is better vintage at the top end than at the lower end where some wines lack substance (except for acidity).

My policy has been to buy proportionatly to the production of the year (this makes things easier with suppliers) as I like diversity and have to buy before a judgment can be safely made hence, initially, I went normal on 2008, long on 2009, a bit short on 2010. However, when I saw 2011 prices, I filled back on 2010 and, funnily enough, was able to find quite some reknowned producer wines at release price (including Barthod, De Courcel, Fourrier and Hudelot Noellat) despite 2010 being a low production year. Bizarre! So, 2010 is now long and 2011 is short (half 2008). There are also some great drinkin 2007 although" not sure" it is a “great vintage”

I am in complete agreement. At least IMO, not buying the 09 is a big mistake. They are already coming together beautifully as the wines start to shed baby fat. 2008 is definitely pure but also acidic and if you like substantial round fruits, this may not be your cup of tea. I still don’t have any 11 reds but the whites I have tried make me to worry about the repeat of the 04.

As others said, I take my allocation of DRC, Rousseau, Dujac, Fourrier, Mugneret, Barthod, Gibourg and etc. Then scale back or not buy Jadot, Le Moine, Faiveley, Thibault Liger Belair and etc.

[Fred_C]

@g.colangelo

I recently landed on this web page:

Domaine Rousseau

where Rousseau gives his classification of the various vintages, which I haven’t seen it discussed here.
There seems to be quite a few unexpected rankings, like 08 being of shorter term than 07.
The reason I mention it here is that he puts 09 in the category of the longest lived vintages, longer than 10, for example.
Mugnier expressed a similar view (in a video interview with Galloni).

I’m no Rousseau and I haven’t been at this long enough to compare to previous vintages. But I always wondered if 09 could end up being like 90 and 02. Maybe it’s that generous fruit that lets it age well or stay open through its entire aging curve. Looking at cellartracker, I’m 2:1 2010:2009. Looking at Rousseau’s vintage rankings, it reminds me that I should probably add a little more 09.

[scott_c]

I basically sat out 2009. I just looked a CellarTracker numbers for 08-10, and of those three vintages, 58.4% is '10, 34.3% is '08, and just 7.2% is '09.

I may sit out '11, too, in order to save money for what will be a very expensive '12 vintage (although I already have more '11s than I do '09s).

[g.colangelo]

Eric,
I think I am in a similar situation as you, having started to buy Burgundy wines relatively recently. So I don’t have any strategy to suggest, but am very much interested in the answers by more experienced people.
Anyway my instinct and buying opportunities so far have led me to the following:
2010: 41%
2009: 15%
2008: 13%
2007: 10%
2006: 10%
2005: 4%
The low percentage of the 2005 vintage is not by choice: when I started buying the 2005 vintage was already gone, unfortunately.

[Henry_Kiichli]

@SteveC

light in 2000-2091

Steve,

Even though you just went light, that is a marvelously optimistic post.

[SteveC]

Interesting,

What I thought I did and what I actually did are different. Here is what I have from Cellartracker …

2011 3.4%
2010 26.7%
2009 14.0%
2008 8.4%
2007 5.9%
2006 5.3%
2005 13.6%
2004 0.5%
2003 0.7%
2002 2.8%
2001 4.1%
2000 1.1%
1999 2.5%
1998 0.9%
1997 0.5%
1996 1.9%
1995 1.1%
1994 0.2%
1993 2.2%
1992 0.1%
1991 0.8%
1990 0.7%

I haven’t shown pre-1990, as the numbers are small. I bought way more '09 than I thought!!

[EricG]

Cellartracker is always revealing:

2011 8.3%
2010 38.8%
2009 5.5%
2008 22.5%
2007 11.7% (more white than red)
2006 5.7%
2005 4.1%
2004 0.5%
2002 0.7%
2001 0.7%
1999 0.5%
1996 0.2%
1993 0.7%
1985 0.2%
1976 0.5%

[Andrew_Gold]

When you guys are showing those percentages, are you showing what’s currently in the cellar, or what you purchased? Ie, are you taking into account the bottles from vintages that have come and gone?

My purchased Current
2011 4.5% 2011 7.7%
2010 35.8% 2010 48.1%
2009 9.6% 2009 7.2%
2008 21.3% 2008 21.8%
2007 6.2% 2007 1.7%
2006 13.3% 2006 7.2%
2005 4.2% 2005 5.0%

Sorta interesting difference…

[SteveC]

@Andrew Gold

When you guys are showing those percentages, are you showing what’s currently in the cellar, or what you purchased? Ie, are you taking into account the bottles from vintages that have come and gone?

My purchased Current
2011 4.5% 2011 7.7%
2010 35.8% 2010 48.1%
2009 9.6% 2009 7.2%
2008 21.3% 2008 21.8%
2007 6.2% 2007 1.7%
2006 13.3% 2006 7.2%
2005 4.2% 2005 5.0%

Sorta interesting difference…

In my case, what’s currently in the cellar plus pending arrivals

[EricG]

@Andrew Gold

When you guys are showing those percentages, are you showing what’s currently in the cellar, or what you purchased? Ie, are you taking into account the bottles from vintages that have come and gone?

Mine were what’s in my cellar or in-bound (e.g, pre-arrival). Does not include consumed.

Looks like you’ve been drinking some '06s…

[Andrew_Gold]

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@Eric Gerber

@Andrew Gold

When you guys are showing those percentages, are you showing what’s currently in the cellar, or what you purchased? Ie, are you taking into account the bottles from vintages that have come and gone?

Mine were what’s in my cellar or in-bound (e.g, pre-arrival). Does not include consumed.

Looks like you’ve been drinking some '06s…

Never had too many of them, but as I fell more and more into Burgundy I started to drink what I had on hand… Not too many 06s or 07s left at this point, but that’s ok!

[Kent_Comley]

It’s a juggling act to retain allocations by buying so called ‘off’ vintages. My volumes can vary by a factor of 10.
Here’s my recent history.
99 - bought all that I could
00 - precious little.
01 - bought plenty
02 - a bit less that 01 due to prices
03 - a few cases to retain allocations
04 - bought too much due to reasonable pricing and availability
05 - bought quite abit, but some prices were a bit scary which reigned me in
06 - bought cautiosly
07 - Ditto
08 - More aggressive buying
09 - similar to 05, bought reasonable volumes selectively due to some pricing and availability.
10 - Work in progress - I like the vintage but note that I have only purchased moderately thus far. Need to rectify that!
11 - early days , only a couple of cases so far, but will be going quietly.

[Ben_A]

I don’t understand avoiding 09’s.

Listening to Lardier, Mugnier, and de Villaine speak about the tremendous quality of the vintage (and these are guys that made world class 08’s and 10’s as well), and all I want to do is put as many away as possible. Lardier specifically believes quite a bit of the negative talk about the vintage is simply based on incorrect assumptions of the how the wines will age, rather than a matter of mere preference, Mugnier believes the 09’s will be longer lived than the 10’s, and de Villaine compares the 09’s to the 59’s. They sold me. I’ve been essentially buying anything I could possibly afford (or not), if at the correct price, from all three vintages. Some wines may perform somewhat better in another vintage, and they may show differently at different times in their evolution, but listening to the growers and you understand how remarkable a situation this has been.

Ultimately I think anyone with good amounts any of these wines will be extremely pleased going down the line. I can hardly wait to the vertical lineups though…08/09/10 from the great producers will be absolutely world killing events. Probably the best 3 vintages back to back to back in the modern history of Burgundy.

[paul_hanna]

My buying since '99:

99 - bought way to much, but still not enough…
00 - looking back wish I bought more, these have mostly dissapeared
01 - about right, was a good year to get quantity at a good price
02 - wouldn’t mind more, but boutghjt a lot
03 - didn’t get a lot, pretty happy about that
04 - bought way too much and not really happy
05 - bought way to much, but still not enough…
06 - given how much I like these, wish I bought more
07 - bought way to much given daughters birth year, wis I just bought VP instead
08 - bought more than normal due to many not taking allocations, probably about right
09 - bought way to much, sons birth year, still on the fence long term
10 - no where near enough yet, still chasing but its hard for top stuff!
11 - bought a few bottles only so far, but some really good ones…

[paul_hanna]

@Ben A.

I don’t understand avoiding 09’s.

Listening to Lardier, Mugnier, and de Villaine speak about the tremendous quality of the vintage (and these are guys that made world class 08’s and 10’s as well), and all I want to do is put as many away as possible. Lardier specifically believes quite a bit of the negative talk about the vintage is simply based on incorrect assumptions of the how the wines will age, rather than a matter of mere preference, Mugnier believes the 09’s will be longer lived than the 10’s, and de Villaine compares the 09’s to the 59’s. They sold me. I’ve been essentially buying anything I could possibly afford (or not), if at the correct price, from all three vintages. Some wines may perform somewhat better in another vintage, and they may show differently at different times in their evolution, but listening to the growers and you understand how remarkable a situation this has been.

Ultimately I think anyone with good amounts any of these wines will be extremely pleased going down the line. I can hardly wait to the vertical lineups though…08/09/10 from the great producers will be absolutely world killing events. Probably the best 3 vintages back to back to back in the modern history of Burgundy.

With regards to the '09’s:

Have you tried them, especially the top wines you reference?

Given the very high prices, and the fact that you are talking about keeping these very long term, I’d still try make sure you try these extensively to make sure before just locking therse all away…

[Roger_Nellans]

@Ben A.

I don’t understand avoiding 09’s.

Listening to Lardier, Mugnier, and de Villaine speak about the tremendous quality of the vintage (and these are guys that made world class 08’s and 10’s as well), and all I want to do is put as many away as possible. Lardier specifically believes quite a bit of the negative talk about the vintage is simply based on incorrect assumptions of the how the wines will age, rather than a matter of mere preference, Mugnier believes the 09’s will be longer lived than the 10’s, and de Villaine compares the 09’s to the 59’s. They sold me. I’ve been essentially buying anything I could possibly afford (or not), if at the correct price, from all three vintages. Some wines may perform somewhat better in another vintage, and they may show differently at different times in their evolution, but listening to the growers and you understand how remarkable a situation this has been.

Ultimately I think anyone with good amounts any of these wines will be extremely pleased going down the line. I can hardly wait to the vertical lineups though…08/09/10 from the great producers will be absolutely world killing events. Probably the best 3 vintages back to back to back in the modern history of Burgundy.

I think your logic on the 09’s is spot on. I too have had conversation on this issue with Mugnier, Villaine and Lardier. Freddy, especially was quite opinionated on the issue…stating that the 09’s are in it for the longer haul. I would have to say that the collective expertise of these 3 men certainly outweigh the experience of anyone on this board. I think I would trust their opinions. So good for you…hopefully in 20 years, you can report back …remember it’s how the wines show in the long haul that is important…at least for me.

[Ben_A]

@paul hanna

With regards to the '09’s:

Have you tried them, especially the top wines you reference?

Given the very high prices, and the fact that you are talking about keeping these very long term, I’d still try make sure you try these extensively to make sure before just locking therse all away…

Many but not all. I tasted them out of barrel for the 2010’s (except Jadot), and had some 09’s in that context, and did some in bottle tastings of 09’s once they came to the US, and had a large 09 dinner with Lardier. But certainly I haven’t tasted anything that would overrule their opinions. I have had a good deal of experience with older burgs from vintages many didn’t care for in the beginning, or thought wouldn’t last, and have ended up being marvelous, that has convinced me that unless there is some glaring problem, I’m probably going to trust growers and winemakers with this type of experience over other sources.

Buying at the wrong price is a completely different story. You can spend $10 on a wine and overpay, or $1000 and underpay. I’m very careful to buy at good prices, such that I could get back my investment should I come under the need. But great Burg from great vintages is a heck of a lot safer place than just about anything else I know, so I’m not worried about it being problematic. But I really hope I’m never in that position of course!

[Peter_Hirsch]

@paul hanna

@Ben A.

I don’t understand avoiding 09’s.

Listening to Lardier, Mugnier, and de Villaine speak about the tremendous quality of the vintage (and these are guys that made world class 08’s and 10’s as well), and all I want to do is put as many away as possible. Lardier specifically believes quite a bit of the negative talk about the vintage is simply based on incorrect assumptions of the how the wines will age, rather than a matter of mere preference, Mugnier believes the 09’s will be longer lived than the 10’s, and de Villaine compares the 09’s to the 59’s. They sold me. I’ve been essentially buying anything I could possibly afford (or not), if at the correct price, from all three vintages. Some wines may perform somewhat better in another vintage, and they may show differently at different times in their evolution, but listening to the growers and you understand how remarkable a situation this has been.

Ultimately I think anyone with good amounts any of these wines will be extremely pleased going down the line. I can hardly wait to the vertical lineups though…08/09/10 from the great producers will be absolutely world killing events. Probably the best 3 vintages back to back to back in the modern history of Burgundy.

With regards to the '09’s:

Have you tried them, especially the top wines you reference?

Given the very high prices, and the fact that you are talking about keeping these very long term, I’d still try make sure you try these extensively to make sure before just locking therse all away…

Paul. Here’s the problem with this; Very few people have the ability to try a ‘snapshot’ of a wine and have an educated view on what that wine will turn out to be. So we turn to the experts; people who we respect who have real experience and (hopefully) no conflict of interest. With the '09 vintage sold through, I’d think the words of Lardier, Mugnier and de Villaine have little conflict of interest and many generations of experience. I’d rather go with their thoughts vs the ‘snapshot’ tastings of 99.9% of tasters. You?

[Sc0tt_F_tzgerald]

@Ryan Caughey

With limited funds, I actually buy a lot more from vintages like '06 and '08 (very good but not “vintages of the century”) than I do in vintages like '10, which I know is fantastic but much pricier. In '08 I was able to get Ponsot and Dujac CdlR for $180 per; in '10 it would cost me twice that. I think most decent vintages are pretty good these days, and I find more value in the very good rather than great vintages. Of course, if I had the funds I’d be loading up on '10 and backfilling '05s like crazy.

I’ve also had good luck recently cherrypicking nearly-ready-to-drink wines from '98, '96, '95, '93, and '91 – often for less than current release prices.

Wow, $180/bottle and that’s a good deal? You burgundy boys know how to spend the $$$. Enjoying my $40 bottle of 2011 Ridge Geyserville as I write this.