Building a subterranean wine cellar/root cellar

[Albert_R]

Very impressive indeed! Can’t wait to see it live next month.

[Mike_Maguire]

Awesome Brian, can’t wait to see the finished product.

[Brian_Tuite]

Finally found a concrete guy. The first one flaked, the second one wanted me to put his kid through college but the third time was a charm. Second guy wanted me to supply the forms and rebar on top of quoting me more than I had budgeted for the entire project. Last guy has a plan that does not include tuition but does include forms and rebar. Plus his price is $7k lower! Now we need to fit it in the calendar.

[Richard_Foxall]

Finally found a concrete guy. The first one flaked, the second one wanted me to put his kid through college but the third time was a charm. Second guy wanted me to supply the forms and rebar on top of quoting me more than I had budgeted for the entire project. Last guy has a plan that does not include tuition but does include forms and rebar. Plus his price is $7k lower! Now we need to fit it in the calendar.

Great news. The clock is ticking, but I assume once the concrete is in, you can knock it out pretty fast from there.

[Brian_Tuite]

Finally found a concrete guy. The first one flaked, the second one wanted me to put his kid through college but the third time was a charm. Second guy wanted me to supply the forms and rebar on top of quoting me more than I had budgeted for the entire project. Last guy has a plan that does not include tuition but does include forms and rebar. Plus his price is $7k lower! Now we need to fit it in the calendar.

Great news. The clock is ticking, but I assume once the concrete is in, you can knock it out pretty fast from there.

Yeah right!

No, I’m having him pour a slab and a 3’ stub wall around the perimeter. I’ll build the rest of the walls with block. I’m not worried about water (aside from the fact it may never rain again here) because it will find its level which will be at the base of the wall where the drain is. I’m not a mason, though I have tackled a few projects over the years, so I’ll be taking my time with that to ensure it is done properly.

[JDavisRoby]

What kind of membrane or waterproofing are you going to do between the concrete and block? I’ve seen water come thru basement walls at higher than three feet. Water finds a way.

[Brian_Tuite]

What kind of membrane or waterproofing are you going to do between the concrete and block? I’ve seen water come thru basement walls at higher than three feet. Water finds a way.

I’m going to have a 120mil membrane from grade to the base of the concrete wall. As long as the drainage system is done right, and it will be, there will be no issues.

[Billy_Evans]

A couple notes, you probably already know.

Concrete is porous and water will wick through it. So, ideally, you want a good bed of gravel with French drains and then a layer of think plastic over the gravel that the slab is poured on.,

For the walls, the same, to truly stop moisture, they need to be treated. Ideally, waterproofed on the outside (multiple companies make rubberized solutions for waterproofing block or concrete). I suppose you could just use some of the rubber paint on the inside (I did that on the inside of a walk in gun vault, in addition to the water proofing on the outside of my basement walls).

Also, hydraulic pressure is a big part of water getting through concrete, whether that’s water building up under the floor, or along the walls, so double French drains (one a little higher than the other) around the outside of your footer, and then make sure you are using some fill gravel (around here they call it sewer rock) that is big enough to not clog the French drain, but small enough to pack well. Finally, cover the gravel with some cloth that will allow water, but not dirt, to get down into the gravel and work it’s way down to clog the French drains, and then put your dirt/topsoil on top of the filter cloth.

You will have two different water challenges to face.

First, is full on water penetration, which will go through both solid concrete, as well as concrete block. Water penetration is going to require water backing up outside (hydraulic pressure) – why northern basements have sump bumps and walk about basements in the south have good French drain networks. French drains, and protecting them from future clogging, are your friend here.

Second, is just humidity wicking in from the concrete. Green concrete puts out a low of water as it’s curing and it cures for decades or longer, but it quickly drops off in how much water it outputs. So, early humidity problems might diminish over time. You could consider a vapor barrier around the full inside, or possibly rubber paint the inside (not cheap but it is a DIY job).

Obviously, in a wine cellar, some humidity is good, but you don’t want it so high you are growing mold on your labels and boxes.

This is what I used to water proof the inside of my walk in vault (but there are a lot of other companies that have similar products). The outside was done by the concrete company using a black rubber paint of some kind.

AMES Blue Max Waterproofing Products | AMES Research Laboratories

P.S. Looking great. Love the work so far, and looking forward to seeing the final product.

[Brian_Tuite]

A couple notes, you probably already know.

Concrete is porous and water will wick through it. So, ideally, you want a good bed of gravel with French drains and then a layer of think plastic over the gravel that the slab is poured on.,

For the walls, the same, to truly stop moisture, they need to be treated. Ideally, waterproofed on the outside (multiple companies make rubberized solutions for waterproofing block or concrete). I suppose you could just use some of the rubber paint on the inside (I did that on the inside of a walk in gun vault, in addition to the water proofing on the outside of my basement walls).

Also, hydraulic pressure is a big part of water getting through concrete, whether that’s water building up under the floor, or along the walls, so double French drains (one a little higher than the other) around the outside of your footer, and then make sure you are using some fill gravel (around here they call it sewer rock) that is big enough to not clog the French drain, but small enough to pack well. Finally, cover the gravel with some cloth that will allow water, but not dirt, to get down into the gravel and work it’s way down to clog the French drains, and then put your dirt/topsoil on top of the filter cloth.

You will have two different water challenges to face.

First, is full on water penetration, which will go through both solid concrete, as well as concrete block. Water penetration is going to require water backing up outside (hydraulic pressure) – why northern basements have sump bumps and walk about basements in the south have good French drain networks. French drains, and protecting them from future clogging, are your friend here.

Second, is just humidity wicking in from the concrete. Green concrete puts out a low of water as it’s curing and it cures for decades or longer, but it quickly drops off in how much water it outputs. So, early humidity problems might diminish over time. You could consider a vapor barrier around the full inside, or possibly rubber paint the inside (not cheap but it is a DIY job).

Obviously, in a wine cellar, some humidity is good, but you don’t want it so high you are growing mold on your labels and boxes.

This is what I used to water proof the inside of my walk in vault (but there are a lot of other companies that have similar products). The outside was done by the concrete company using a black rubber paint of some kind.

AMES Blue Max Waterproofing Products | AMES Research Laboratories

P.S. Looking great. Love the work so far, and looking forward to seeing the final product.

Great input. Much of which I have investigated up to this point. The second drain is an interesting idea although we really don’t get that wet up here. No snow melt to drag things along. I’m feeling pretty confident in my perimeter french drain and waterproofing plans but anything redundant may be a plus. Thanks!

[John_Morris]

Love this thread. But we need more pix.

I’m marveling at the wonderful, soft, excavatable soil. Where I am now in the Catskills is all glacial moraine – clay and gravel. It’s hard to drive a hand shovel more than a couple of inches.

I learned recently that a Mafia hit ordered by Tony Provenzano (the mobster believed to have been behind Jimmy Hoffa’s disappearance) occurred a few hundred yards away in 1961. The hitmen planned to bury the body of Tony “Three Fingers” Castellito nearby, but gave up after a few attempts to turn the soil. Any local could have told them digging a grave around here was hopeless!

They should have come to your yard, Brian.

This is why you go to west Jersey or PA.

Indeed. Here’s a pic of a recent excavation near me.

[Colin_Haggerty]

Hi Brian:

Congrats on your project. It looks like it will be beautiful!

When we constructed our subterranean cellar, it was built like a boat (thick waterproof neoprene-like material under the slab and up the exterior of the walls, coupled with primary sealant waterproofing of the concrete floor and walls themselves). Outside of the neoprene-like layer was 3/4" gravel for the lowest few feet, compacted 3/8" gravel as backfill above that level. All drains were “burrito wrapped” with fabric. Make sure that the drains are placed so that the holes in the drains are facing down. We have never taken on any moisture in the walls or floors after 15 years. If you are fully below grade, your drains will all need to feed into a stainless steel sump pump basin that can be placed prior to the floor being poured (so that the basin is embedded in the floor). I would recommend making the basin big enough to accommodate three pumps (one that pumps at 1", a second stronger pump that kicks in at about 6" if the first pump is overwhelmed, and a third that is powered by a marine battery in the event that the electricity goes out). The marine battery can be paired with a continous charger so that it is always ready for action. Having clean-outs for all of your drains is also a good idea.

I strongly recommend spending extra on your waterproofing if you have the funds, as it will potentially save you a world of headache.

Best,

Colin

[Brian_Tuite]

Hi Brian:

Congrats on your project. It looks like it will be beautiful!

When we constructed our subterranean cellar, it was built like a boat (thick waterproof neoprene-like material under the slab and up the exterior of the walls, coupled with primary sealant waterproofing of the concrete floor and walls themselves). Outside of the neoprene-like layer was 3/4" gravel for the lowest few feet, compacted 3/8" gravel as backfill above that level. All drains were “burrito wrapped” with fabric. Make sure that the drains are placed so that the holes in the drains are facing down. We have never taken on any moisture in the walls or floors after 15 years. If you are fully below grade, your drains will all need to feed into a stainless steel sump pump basin that can be placed prior to the floor being poured (so that the basin is embedded in the floor). I would recommend making the basin big enough to accommodate three pumps (one that pumps at 1", a second stronger pump that kicks in at about 6" if the first pump is overwhelmed, and a third that is powered by a marine battery in the event that the electricity goes out). The marine battery can be paired with a continous charger so that it is always ready for action. Having clean-outs for all of your drains is also a good idea.

I strongly recommend spending extra on your waterproofing if you have the funds, as it will potentially save you a world of headache.

Best,

Colin

Thanks, I’m constructing this on a slope so I ran drain pipe directly out (no pump necessary).

[Dav3_Dyr0ff]

When we constructed our subterranean cellar, it was built like a boat

This reminds me of a Wine Spectator article from 25 years ago, give or take. They were in a “wine cellars of the rich and famous” (well, maybe not so famous) phase at the time, and did a profile on a guy in Houston with an enormous below-ground cellar. With the water table down there, nobody even has a basement, much less a wine cellar in the basement, and with the heat, the guy didn’t want to build it above grade. So, if I recall his description correctly, “we basically built a submarine.” Pretty wild.

[John_Morris]

Many years ago, I toured Chateaux Margaux. Corinne Mentzelopoulos led the tour. She showed off their then-new barrel cellar, which was below the water table. They had to take great precautions in the construction, she explained. The friend I was with, who was fluent in French, remarked that they didn’t want it to become Bateau Margaux. (Mentzelopoulos did not laugh. David, who had lived in Paris, said that the French aren’t prone to pun in conversation.)

[Alan_Rath]

When we constructed our subterranean cellar, it was built like a boat

This reminds me of a Wine Spectator article from 25 years ago, give or take. They were in a “wine cellars of the rich and famous” (well, maybe not so famous) phase at the time, and did a profile on a guy in Houston with an enormous below-ground cellar. With the water table down there, nobody even has a basement, much less a wine cellar in the basement, and with the heat, the guy didn’t want to build it above grade. So, if I recall his description correctly, “we basically built a submarine.” Pretty wild.

Wonder what the follow up story looks like after the recent hurricanes and floods.

[Dennis_Borczon]

Brian, In following this thread I am trying to decide if you are a genius, or an absolute lunatic. I am pretty sure that a day or two after you are finished, have the room stocked with wine and are admiring the finished racks, you are going to tell yourself “Damn, I should have made it bigger!”

I am pretty sure you are the kind of Berserker I would love to have a glass of wine with!

[Richard_Foxall]

Brian, In following this thread I am trying to decide if you are a genius, or an absolute lunatic. I am pretty sure that a day or two after you are finished, have the room stocked with wine and are admiring the finished racks, you are going to tell yourself “Damn, I should have made it bigger!”

I am pretty sure you are the kind of Berserker I would love to have a glass of wine with!

I consider myself to be a good friend of Brian’s and imagine he would say he is a good friend of mine. So let me answer this:

He is a bit of a genius, and he is definitely a lunatic, or I probably would not have become his friend. And he is absolutely someone you want to have a glass of wine with.

More soberly, since it’s just noon, he has unbelievable building and mechanical skills. I’m no slouch, as the contractor who added my second story told our structural engineer, but I am pretty awestruck by what Brian can do. Unfortunately, he lives too far away to be helpful when I get stuck on a project.

[ToddFrench]

Brian, In following this thread I am trying to decide if you are a genius, or an absolute lunatic. I am pretty sure that a day or two after you are finished, have the room stocked with wine and are admiring the finished racks, you are going to tell yourself “Damn, I should have made it bigger!”

I am pretty sure you are the kind of Berserker I would love to have a glass of wine with!

I consider myself to be a good friend of Brian’s and imagine he would say he is a good friend of mine. So let me answer this:

He is a bit of a genius, and he is definitely a lunatic, or I probably would not have become his friend. And he is absolutely someone you want to have a glass of wine with.

More soberly, since it’s just noon, he has unbelievable building and mechanical skills. I’m no slouch, as the contractor who added my second story told our structural engineer, but I am pretty awestruck by what Brian can do. Unfortunately, he lives too far away to be helpful when I get stuck on a project.

I think once he finishes this amazing project, we’re ALL going to say we want to call him a friend

[Brian_Tuite]

Brian, In following this thread I am trying to decide if you are a genius, or an absolute lunatic. I am pretty sure that a day or two after you are finished, have the room stocked with wine and are admiring the finished racks, you are going to tell yourself “Damn, I should have made it bigger!”

I am pretty sure you are the kind of Berserker I would love to have a glass of wine with!

I vote lunatic. I had my Wife’s blessing though so I figured WTF, nothing ventured nothing gained. Worst case scenario was I’d fill the hole back up with soil. As for size it will be plenty big enough, approx 10’x12’ with 8’ ceiling inside and that’s all storage space. The tasting room above with be even larger.

[Rodrigo_B]

Brian, In following this thread I am trying to decide if you are a genius, or an absolute lunatic. I am pretty sure that a day or two after you are finished, have the room stocked with wine and are admiring the finished racks, you are going to tell yourself “Damn, I should have made it bigger!”

I am pretty sure you are the kind of Berserker I would love to have a glass of wine with!

I consider myself to be a good friend of Brian’s and imagine he would say he is a good friend of mine. So let me answer this:

He is a bit of a genius, and he is definitely a lunatic, or I probably would not have become his friend. And he is absolutely someone you want to have a glass of wine with.

More soberly, since it’s just noon, he has unbelievable building and mechanical skills. I’m no slouch, as the contractor who added my second story told our structural engineer, but I am pretty awestruck by what Brian can do. Unfortunately, he lives too far away to be helpful when I get stuck on a project.

I think once he finishes this amazing project, we’re ALL going to say we want to call him a friend

Location for the next Bersekerfeat found?