Blind Tasting Oregon vs. California (Predict the winner)

WINE TALK
21

Updated on the evolution of the wines over 3 Days. St. Innocent was the clear star for me. I will drink the Martinelli Moonshine but prefer the style of the St. Innocent and J. Christopher.


Chardonnay Flight
2014 Domaine Drouhin Oregon Chardonnay Arthur - USA, Oregon, Willamette Valley, Dundee Hills
Day 1: Super clear in color but fabulous on the nose and palate. Lemon, spice, apricot, and picks up an orange peel note on the finish. Medium but not over the top by any means. Good acidity. Drink now to 2020. 92 points
Day 2: A lot of lemon on day 2. As this warms up gets better featuring stone fruits, Carmel, dried apricots and orange peel. Medium finish. Still liked this better on day 1. 89 points
Day 3: Better on day 3 than the Talley. Carmel, lemon, lime, orange peel and chalk. Stood up over 3 days so I am optimistic that this has 4 more years of life. 90 points
Recommendation: Drink on a pop and pour. Probably has 3 more years of enjoyment. (92 pts.)

2013 Talley Vineyards Chardonnay Rincon Vineyard - USA, California, Central Coast, Arroyo Grande Valley
Day 1: Solid but not as good as the Drouhin. Oak, carmel, apple, spices and mild oak. As noted on the last bottle this got good on day 3 so we will see with this one. Medium finish. 90 points
Day 2: Good and very similar to day 1. Picks up more Carmel on day 2 and features oak, vanilla, spices and pear. Medium finish. 89 points
Day 3: Definitely faded on day 3. Just does not have much going on. No score.
Recommendation: Based on the decline on day 3 I would say drink these up in the next few years. Drink by 2020. (90 pts.)


Pinot Noir Flight 2

2010 St. Innocent Pinot Noir Temperance Hill - USA, Oregon, Willamette Valley
Day 1: Wow! Amazing complexity and vibrant nose. The favorite wine of the group. Cranberry, spice, rose petals and earth. Medium plus finish and good acidity. This wine has many years ahead based on where it is now. Drink now to 2024. 94 points
Day 2: Amazing. I highly recommend experiencing this wine on day 2. Wonderful nose of cranberry, forest floor, rose petals, spices and wafer. Medium plus finish and acidity balances out this amazing wine. Could be the best Pinot from Oregon for me since the epic 2007 White Rose. 95 points
Day 3: Still amazing. This wine has a long life ahead.
Recommendation: Drink now to 2024. This is one of the best Pinots I have ever tasted from Oregon!!! (95 pts.)


2012 Thomas Fogarty Pinot Noir Rapley Trail Vineyard - USA, California, San Francisco Bay, Santa Cruz Mountains
Day 1: Dust, underbrush, strawberries, floral and cherry notes. Medium finish. This wine was a little tight and will see improvements probably on day 2. 90 points
Day 2: Day 2 has improved the performance from day 1. Strawberry, earth, mint, underbrush and beef. Much more concentrated and medium plus finish. Similar to other reviews of this wine. Solid. 92 points
Day 3: More impressive on day 3. Spices, floral, underbrush, roasted meats and herbs. Not as much fruit but love the style. Big and long finish. This is a young wine and should have a long life ahead. 92+ points
Recommendation: Hold 2 plus years and enjoy. (92 pts.)


Pinot Noir Flight 3

2012 J. Christopher Pinot Noir Lumière - USA, Oregon, Willamette Valley, Eola - Amity Hills
Day 1: Favorite wine of the night along with the St. Innocent. Bright fruit, good acidity and features underbrush, floral and minerals on the palate. Medium plus finish and the most Burgundian wine of the six. Excellent! 93 points
Day 2: Wonderful again. Strawberry, floral, minerals, wood and earth. Medium plus finish and balanced. This is an outstanding wine and consistent with previous notes. Should have another 5 years of drinking enjoyment. 93 points
Recommendation: You can drink this now on a pop and pour or cellar up to five years. Wonderful wine. (93 pts.)


2013 Martinelli Pinot Noir Moonshine Ranch - USA, California, Sonoma County, Russian River Valley
Day 1: Big but not alcoholic like some over the top Cali Pinots. Floral, sweet fruits, brown sugar, bacon fat and raspberries. Medium plus finish. Hope this settles down on day 2/3 as this could round into an excellent wine. 90 plus.
Day 2: Still big and powerful. Roasted meats, sweet fruits, brown sugar, bacon fat and floral notes. Not for the faint at heart. Don’t hate this style but I could see many who would not. I can’t say it has moved beyond a 90. Should be interesting if this is as concentrated on day 3. BIG! 90 points
Day 3: Holding strong. Certainly not as good as the St. Innocent Temperance but totally different style. 90 points
Recommendation: Bigger style Pinot and could age this for at least five plus years. (90 pts.)


Pinot Noir Flight 4

2015 Colene Clemens Pinot Noir Dopp Creek - USA, Oregon, Willamette Valley, Chehalem Mountains
Day 1: Very good showing. Minerals, earth, raspberries, spice. Multilayered finish and complex overall. This should age nicely and should really improve over time. Great score now but could improve on day 2/3. 92 points
Day 2: Not as good as day 1 with earth, licorice, ripe strawberries, spice and cedar. Medium finish. Certainly not worried about drinking these right now but it was better on a pop and pour. 89 points
Day 3: Underbrush, earth, coffee grounds and violets. Medium finish. More concentrated than day 2 and a bit better. 90 points
Recommendation: Drink this over the next 5 to 7 years. (92 pts.)


2015 Peake Ranch Pinot Noir John Sebastiano Vineyard - USA, California, Central Coast, Sta. Rita Hills
Day 1: Cranberry, spice, wafer and earth. Powerful wine but balanced overall. Medium to long finish. Good acidity and would pair nicely with a variety of dishes. Drink now to 2022. 93 points
Day 2: Cola, cranberry, spice, water chestnuts and stone. Medium plus finish and good acidity. A really solid Sta. Rita Hills Pinot Noir. Highly recommend this. 93 points
Day 3: Cola, subtle cranberries, stone, rose petals and earth. Medium plus finish. Holding strong on day 3. This is one to age. 93 points
Recommendation: If you only have one of these pop it in 2020 or later. If you have a six pack drink one over the next six years and see its evolution. Outstanding wine! (93 pts.)

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Yeah, I would have predicted that the St. Innocent would be the WOTN. Granted, I don’t have much experience with California Pinot, but I had another vintage of the St. Innocent Temperance Hill Pinot a few years ago and it was fantastic. It may have been the 2011, but it transformed in the matter of an hour into a very complex wine. I remember orange peel and cranberry. Great wines.

Also, we enjoyed a magnum of the 2011 Domain Drouhin Oregon Arthur Chardonnay on Saturday night at a pre birthday dinner for the SO and friends. Similar to your notes and it was no where near decline.

James

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James St. Innocent in my opinion is the best producer of Pinot Noir in America when you factor in price.

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Temperance Hill.
St. Innocent.

I love all three.

Also, Jay Somers is a bad ass. Period. Definitely flies under the radar, but should not.

I’ve never been a huge fan of the DDO Arthur. They do produce a super high end Chard ‘Edition Limitée Chardonnay’ which is absolutely terrific.

Lastly: this is why I love blind tastings.

that is all.

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+1 (or close enough…I haven’t had the Edition Limitée Chardonnay, but will have to find a couple of bottles.)

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I respect your opinion, but am guessing that there are a LOT of producers you haven’t tried? And probably a lot of vintages and wines as well. We all have our favorites, and I think you’d get a tremendous range of answers to the question of who could be the “best” producer of Pinot Noir in America(none of which would be right). The only LeBron in Pinot Noir, is the grape.

I’m no hater on St. I but I am no fan of conversations about GOATs. I wouldn’t even give you best in Oregon, much less the USA. And as good an argument could be made for Evesham Wood, Belle Pente, Walter Scott, Patricia Green…eh, too many to bother with and I am sure you get my point.

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John Glas wrote: ↑
Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:42 pm
James St. Innocent in my opinion is the best producer of Pinot Noir in America when you factor in price.
I respect your opinion, but am guessing that there are a LOT of producers you haven’t tried? And probably a lot of vintages and wines as well. We all have our favorites, and I think you’d get a tremendous range of answers to the question of who could be the “best” producer of Pinot Noir in America(none of which would be right). The only LeBron in Pinot Noir, is the grape.

I’m no hater on St. I but I am no fan of conversations about GOATs. I wouldn’t even give you best in Oregon, much less the USA. And as good an argument could be made for Evesham Wood, Belle Pente, Walter Scott, Patricia Green…eh, too many to bother with and I am sure you get my point.

Marcus I usually like Patty Green but this is one of the worst Pinots I have tasted in a while.

2014 Patricia Green Cellars Pinot Noir Estate Old Vine Ribbon Ridge - USA, Oregon, Willamette Valley, Ribbon Ridge (1/16/2019)
Day 1: Nose of rose petals, twigs, damp leaves and muted fruit. On the palate cranberry, cigar, damp earth and bay leaves. Shorter finish with subtle spice. This is the kind of wine that needs tp be reexamined. Not sure what to make of it on day 1, hour 1. Certainly not bad but not great. A rare score withheld.
Day 2: Violets, spice, damp earth, minerals and roasted beef. Finish is much better and not as astringent. While this is not a great wine I see an evolution from day 1. Again score withheld in hopes this wine might blossom on day 3 or 4.
Day 3: Coming together some but I just don’t see this ever being a good wine. As one writer stated nose and palate are ok but that finish is the major flaw of this wine. Very astringent and not enjoyable. I like most of the Patty Green wines I have sampled but this is not one of them.
Recommendation: Easy pass on this one. I will try day 4 but no hopes for improvement. (82 points)

28

Well, you made me pull out my bottle of 3 of these. Hadn’t tried one before. I have to respectfully disagree. Meating cranberry/cherry, now wet leaves, no damp earth, some spice. Not at all astringent. Maybe you have a bad bottle. I rated this A- on my scale.

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I sent them an email and Jim Anderson responded and said that only one other on Cellar Tracker had a similar note. If this does not represent the wine than I would have expected them to send a replacement. This wine was terrible. I review a ton of wine so I write this off as a terrible wine. I will not purchase another bottle of their wines if this is their customer service.

30

No offense John, but your post is a bit disturbing to me.

82 points for astringency? The nose you describe sounds exactly correct for a YOUNG Ribbon Ridge whole cluster wine.

The type I make. And have worked very hard to get to. And that work best for me from Whistling Ridge, the slightly cooler and more wind affected vineyard next to Patricia Green’s estate vineyard. If the OV Estate was 82 for you, my guess would be that the Whistling Ridge would be 65-69 points.

If you go to my Berserker Day profile, it’s right there at the “I make wines for Negroni drinkers”.

I swap cases with Jim, and I haven’t tasted the 2014 Old Vine Estate, but it’s usually my first or second preference in his line up, for all the reasons you listed. Am I a complete freak?

Maybe, I did grow up with a row of red currant bushes right off my front porch and I ate those little muted red fruit, tart, tannic berries every day in season.

But…it’s also my opinion that those “flaws”, those astringencies, are what create the highest level of quality tertiary flavors. The best wine I have ever had was a 57 Bonnes Mares shared with me in 1996 and it reshaped my understanding of wine in 60 seconds. When I opened a 93 Bonnes Mares from Groffier in 2003 to celebrate the first release of my wines, my first thought was, “well, that was stupid”. At a decade old it was astringent and completely closed for business. Those tannins need time, far beyond the patience most people have, but with enough time, they also offer results that, IMO, often surpass what less “flawed”, less astringent wines are never able to offer.

That’s my $.02 on astringency in wines.

My $.02 on reviewing wines as a critic rather than a consumer?

You should probably take the time to see old bottles of these types of wines before presenting yourself as an expert. Do you drink or taste young whole cluster Burgundy producers? (Dujac, Chandon de Briailles, Dom. De l’Arlot? Or traditional european producers like Clos Rougeard?)

Jim and I enjoy our lives, but the work is relentless. The grape is challenging, and so are the sites. Whistling Ridge, and the wines it produces are why I do this. I enjoy the other wines I make and the other sites I work with, but when I die Whistling Ridge is what will be served at the wake.

Consumers get to say whatever they want, they’re buying and reviewing for a palate of one. Critics are not in the same boat. When you say that a 5 year old wine from a site that doesn’t begin to get revved up for 10 years won’t outlive the tannins…what’s your experience level with 10-20 year old Ribbon Ridge wines?

This is a salient fact for me. Because as I have the wines to reference for aging, from Whistling Ridge, it’s become apparent that the vineyard really needs a decade to begin to unfold. But when it does unfold, I don’t need to buy Burgundy anymore (although I still will…). Neal Martin was kind enough to gift the 2012 Goodfellow Whistling Ridge Pinot Noir with 82 points as well (Funny that you would give the same score to a wine from the vineyard next door…) and Jamie Goode rated it 94 points. In the end, Jamie Goode was simply much more familiar with how the wines evolved(and in the end scores-schmores)…and Neal passed reviewing Oregon on to another reviewer because he couldn’t spend the time here that he needed to.

Tone doesn’t come through in print, so hopefully this isn’t coming across as a witch hunt. But when I was a somm, I pasaed a lot of judgement on other peoples work, and 20 years later I still regret some of the presumptions I made on wines that turned out to be wrong. And I didn’t have them in print.

Good luck with your reviews, and please pass on reviewing mine for a while [wink.gif]

31

Really? You don’t enjoy whole cluster so them not burning another bottle is bad customer service? If someone emailed me with your comments, there’s nothing negative about the wine descriptors at all, except that you don’t enjoy tannins. I’d offer to refund your money but probably balk at sending you another bottle too.

My mouth gets me into plenty of trouble that I don’t need, but I doubt that continuing this will do either of us any favors.

And please don’t tell me you taste a lot of wines…shockingly, so do I.

32

Yeah I gotta say Mr. Glas, you come across as far more astringent than the wine you seem to “not get”.
I once had one of my best friends taste a wine I really loved and say “I just don’t get this wine”. I respected his diplomacy mixed with wisdom. He possessed the diplomacy not to call me wrong and the wisdom to realize that perhaps it was he who had not developed an appreciation for.a certain style. When you go so far as to call out a winemaker as having poor customer service for refusing to send you another bottle-another bottle you would still not “get”, you cross the line from merely clumsy to being a mamzer (look it up if you don’t happen to know Yiddish).

33
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Marcus,

First off if you have an opinion on your favorite Oregon winery for the price I would not have such a negative reaction as you did. If I don’t like your suggestion I am not going to reply and make a comment. St. Innocent is outstanding for the price. If you don’t like that opinion move on. I drink wines from around the world and don’t put all of my time in one region.

On to the Patty Green wine.

So the average for this wine is 88. Not really a rock star wine. We all know wines evolve and change. If the bottle I had was not representative of the wine at this stage than it must be flawed. When I get a finish that bad on any wine I am concerned. It was one of the worst finishes on a wine I have had in a long time. I don’t see time helping it.

I have tasted my fair share of Oregon Pinots and was one of the first to declare the 2007 vintage a success with the St. Innocent White Rose. Here is the link if you don’t believe me.
CellarTracker! My handle is 3 day wine review along with Matt Shank and rocknroller from my Minneapolis Club.

This is another tasting of the same wine from the 07 vintage that I enjoyed.

35

Yeah I gotta say Mr. Glas, you come across as far more astringent than the wine you seem to “not get”.
I once had one of my best friends taste a wine I really loved and say “I just don’t get this wine”. I respected his diplomacy mixed with wisdom. He possessed the diplomacy not to call me wrong and the wisdom to realize that perhaps it was he who had not developed an appreciation for.a certain style. When you go so far as to call out a winemaker as having poor customer service for refusing to send you another bottle-another bottle you would still not “get”, you cross the line from merely clumsy to being a mamzer (look it up if you don’t happen to know Yiddish).

Let me add that the comment was only one other reviewer did not like the wine and the cellar tracker reviewer stated will be returning the wine. I did not detect heat damage and certainly not corked. I have never had a finish so off on a wine in a long time. If that is not what Jim is tasting on this wine then maybe my bottle was compromised. The fact I reached out to them and provided my note is what I would want from any consumer if I owned a winery. Their response was that everyone else enjoyed the wine and you and one other user did not. What else would you like me to do? If the wine is not representative and the finish is not what I described then yes I think they would want me to sample a different bottle. I don’t need to like every style of Oregon Pinot Noir but this same wine from 2007 was excellent.

2007 Patricia Green Cellars Pinot Noir Estate Old Vine Ribbon Ridge - USA, Oregon, Willamette Valley, Ribbon Ridge (4/15/2010)
Color is light purple. Nose reveals floral, spice and plums. On the palate this is very complex with floral, spice, strawberries, and soft tannins. A medium, multilayered finish. I would drink these 07s up in five years as they are great right now. (92 points)

36

John,

In case you forgot. You didn’t say that St. Innocent was your favorite. I do give you big points for using the words “in my opinion”, but…


“James St. Innocent in my opinion is the best producer of Pinot Noir in America when you factor in price.”

As noted in my post, if your a consumer, this is not a big deal.

You’re portraying yourself as a reviewer…offering the most comprehensive reviews of wine in the world, according to your website…and repeatedly tell us how much you taste.

Suggesting that St. I is the best American producer of Pinot Noir is different than saying St. I is your favorite, specifically in that “my favorite” unequivocably suggests there may be others equal to your favorite but unknown to you.

It also suggests that you understand that tasting wine is subjective, and that you recognize other wineries may have the same quality of vineyard and skill set in producing wines but still not appeal to you as much as your favorite does.


“In my opinion is the best producer of Pinot Noir in America” isn’t about you crowning St. I, it’s about you, with your website, assuming the mantle of an expertise and tasting experience thorough enough to say what you did.

And, in my opinion, I don’t see that as being true. At all.

Willamette Valley wines are my life. And I would never think that even with my knowledge and experience of the region, that I am vaguely capable of making the statement you did. And I mean for Oregon, not the country.

If you’re reviewing people’s work critically and using their work to elevate your brand…you should show a little more respect to what you don’t know, and to the words you use to express your professional opinions. Even in a casual scenario like the WB. (I am sure this is medecine that I should swallow myself from time to time as well)

37

On to the Patty Green wine…

Honestly, I am still baffled as to why you responded to my criticism of crowning GOATs with a negative review of a Patricia Green wine.

I responded to your posting the PGC “review” with the first thing that came to mind. That your tasting note seems a far cry from a “terrible” wine.

But I just don’t get why you put it up at all?


Regarding the wine…without significantly more knowledge of your tasting regimen, I can’t comment.

But offhand thoughts. The “dumb phase” for Pinot Noir is both exacerbated and lengthened with whole cluster. I know this from experience with my own wines. Not only do the wines have more tannins, they are a more stable tannin. While many destemmed 2014 Willamette Valley Pinot Noirs might be coming out of that phase, and have the flesh to fold in moderate astringency, I would doubt that many Ribbon Ridge wines(perhaps Ayres excepted) and probably almost none of the whole cluster Ribbon Ridge wines are in a great spot right now. The 2014 Whistling Ridge certainly isn’t.

I’m not even going to comment on the things that can impact the tasting experiemce itself. I wasn’t there.

Regarding your comments about them shipping you another bottle if they believed that your experience was flawed? Jim wasn’t at your tasting. How is he supposed to actually know what the real issue here is? Maybe the wine you tasted right ahead of it was carrying 10grams of rs? Maybe not. Maybe lots of wineries would stop what they’re doing, go grab a bottle from the library, package it up, and ship it to you on their dime. It’s your sense of entitlement to that, as if it’s just de rigeur, that rubs me the wrong way.

“I don’t see time helping it” Seriously-what’s your experience with older whole cluster wines and their longevity? What’s your experience with older Ribbon Ridge wines and how they evolve in the bottle. The three wineries on that specific hill-Beaux Freres, Goodfellow, and PGC all make wines that have long life expectancies. That’s the nature of the dirt on that particular hill.

I said before that the whole cluster dumb phase is elongated, but I have also seen plenty of very tannic wines come around. I am assuming you taste wines from old school Piedmont producers? Or top Rioja producers that don’t play with micro-ox to soften the tannins?

I dislike comments like that. Especially since I rarely ever see experts go back and check whether comments like that actually pan out.

Last…CT scores aren’t exactly a smoking gun.

It’s great that you were an early adopter on the 07 vintage as well. Everyone in the Oregon industry appreciates all of the support in correcting the original assessment. Thanks to you, and all of the other people-especially Bob Wood, who also spoke up for that vintage.

38

Normally I wouldn’t bother but since Mr. Glas seems particularly hellbent here on this topic I will give my input.

I had no idea who this was. He had 2 communications with us regarding this wine. The first was the review as he has printed and asking “I can’t get over the finish on this wine. Was this drunk too young? I tried it over 3 days and could not get over the finish.”

This was my reply, "John,

I was forwarded your question about the above wine. Not sure what to tell you. No one has brought that up, the wine was well-reviewed by several other critics/publications and it sold through fairly quickly. In fact we are mid-way through selling the 2017 vintage of it. Perhaps you got a bottle that was somehow compromised in some way. Perhaps it was just showing a funky nature. Not exactly attempting to make glossy, showy wines so they can be rough around the edges sometimes in their youth. Maybe you just didn’t find it matched up with what you were expecting and appreciate. Can’t say as I wasn’t there to taste it so no way to know for sure. Last time I had it was a year/18 months back and it was fine. Don’t know about the other cellartracker comment but certainly seems to be the minority. Sorry you didn’t like it but I don’t have an answer for you or an experience that matches up with yours or any other comments along the lines of what you are apparently experiencing.

Sincerely,

James Anderson"

He wrote back, "Probably an off bottle. A few others on cellar tracker commenting on the finish similar to what I got.

Cheers,

John"

I responded, “Maybe so. It’s really just one other commenter on Cellartracker that had your experience. Not saying that’s a good thing but it is just the one.”

End of conversation. At no time did he identify himself as anything other than a reviewer of this wine. I don’t know that he bought it from us as he never indicates that he did or that he purchased it at all. I did not in any way get the idea or even general feeling that he was a customer or that he was aggrieved in any way other than as a reviewer of wines that did not particularly like something we made. He referenced Cellartracker where 8 of the 9 reviews (not counting his, of course) are completely positive but said a “few others” making me think there was an agenda in play. He never followed up beyond that but apparently wants to come here and complain about the customer service that was lacking when he only presented himself as a reviewer, not a customer.

I will put it to the board here. Many people have purchased wines from us and I would venture to say most transactions went off without a hitch but in the times when something went sideways for whatever reason I would bet that we took ownership of whatever mishap and attempted to make things right. If folks here feel that I personally dropped the ball here I will be happy to send him a bottle of whatever he would like as a replacement. I don’t think I am in the wrong as I didn’t even know I had something to be in the wrong about other than making crappy wine. Let me know.

39

In the area of improvement Mr. Anderson, maybe get a haircut and work a little more cardio into your week.

40

Man, I just got a haircut and those things aren’t cheap these days! Hmm, cardio. I do have to walk from the winery to the office/tasting room a few times a day.